4 ms·

First, I think your points are well made and articulated. I particularly like your term "struggle session". Second, I think you're missing what Ken called the

First, I think your points are well made and articulated. I particularly like your term "struggle session". Second, I think you're missing what Ken called the "First Speaker Problem" (which IMHO is one of the most important parts of Ken's thinking) > "We want to live in a culture where a joke on the internet doesn't lead to a struggle session at work" The implication I'm hearing in those word is that the "first speaker" shouldn't be thrust into a struggle session at work for their speech; what I'm not hearing (although your literal words would cover this situation, so maybe I'm mishearing) is consideration into if the joke (or other statement) thrusts someone else into a struggle session at work. IMHO, to re-use your words; it isn't batshit insane, it isn't gobsmackingly wrong, and it isn't that difficult to understand - whatever principles you want to apply to the responders to the apparent "First Speaker" should also be applied to the "First Speaker" as if they are themselves a responder. (If only because, I'd argue, they are meaningfully actually a responder themselves)

coffeemug 5y ago
I don't understand the "first speaker" problem, or why this abstraction is necessary. You shouldn't be thrust into a struggle session at work independent of when you entered the conversation or whether you entered into it at all.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Perhaps you should spend some time thinking about the distinction he's making before trying to take the piece apart based on an abstraction he's not talking about.
  - coffeemug 5y ago
    I did, and I still don't understand why it's a necessary abstraction. As I said, you shouldn't be thrust into a struggle session at work independent of when you entered the conversation or whether you entered into it at all. That's the whole point of liberal order-- equal justice under the law. Nobody is trying to get responders to shut up. They're trying to stop responders from shutting up the initiators. The distinction between the two is that the latter is usually qualitatively escalatory. Alice makes a joke on Twitter, but rather than respond on Twitter Bob calls her employer. Alice schedules a talk at a university, but rather than scheduling a rebuttal Bob calls the university demanding to cancel the talk. Alice writes an op-ed, Bob publishes her address. Both are speech, but a cultural norm of escalation makes the culture a pretty awful place to live.
    - RangerScience 5y ago
      Ken's idea of "First Speaker Problem" is that you're giving Alice additional rights/consideration/privileges when you apply the abstraction of "initiator" and "responder", rather apply the "speaker" abstraction equally to everyone, and that that different is a Problem. FSP isn't an abstraction, it's a named bug. Everything else you're saying is just Ken's point about proportionate response.
- RangerScience 5y ago
  > I don't understand the "first speaker" problem Ken talks about it in depth. Is there a part in there where he loses you? (by which I mean: a part where you're understanding it, and then in the next part you're not). I might be able to help you get your head around it.

coffeemug 5y ago

I don't understand the "first speaker" problem, or why this abstraction is necessary. You shouldn't be thrust into a struggle session at work independent of when you entered the conversation or whether you entered into it at all.

tptacek 5y ago
Perhaps you should spend some time thinking about the distinction he's making before trying to take the piece apart based on an abstraction he's not talking about.
- coffeemug 5y ago
  I did, and I still don't understand why it's a necessary abstraction. As I said, you shouldn't be thrust into a struggle session at work independent of when you entered the conversation or whether you entered into it at all. That's the whole point of liberal order-- equal justice under the law. Nobody is trying to get responders to shut up. They're trying to stop responders from shutting up the initiators. The distinction between the two is that the latter is usually qualitatively escalatory. Alice makes a joke on Twitter, but rather than respond on Twitter Bob calls her employer. Alice schedules a talk at a university, but rather than scheduling a rebuttal Bob calls the university demanding to cancel the talk. Alice writes an op-ed, Bob publishes her address. Both are speech, but a cultural norm of escalation makes the culture a pretty awful place to live.
  - RangerScience 5y ago
    Ken's idea of "First Speaker Problem" is that you're giving Alice additional rights/consideration/privileges when you apply the abstraction of "initiator" and "responder", rather apply the "speaker" abstraction equally to everyone, and that that different is a Problem. FSP isn't an abstraction, it's a named bug. Everything else you're saying is just Ken's point about proportionate response.
RangerScience 5y ago
> I don't understand the "first speaker" problem Ken talks about it in depth. Is there a part in there where he loses you? (by which I mean: a part where you're understanding it, and then in the next part you're not). I might be able to help you get your head around it.