8 ms·

Nintendo is probably still feeling burned by the NDS. It was a fantastic console, and fairly open. It had two ARM CPUs (one per screen), and there was a terrif

Nintendo is probably still feeling burned by the NDS. It was a fantastic console, and fairly open. It had two ARM CPUs (one per screen), and there was a terrific homebrew scene. Some of my first embedded C programs were for the NDS lite. It had ebook readers, paint programs, a toy Linux port, the whole 9 yards. But, that openness also made it open to piracy. The way you loaded code onto the system was through "flashcarts". They were shaped like game cartridges, but they had a microSD slot on the top and an internal MCU which often ran a firmware that could load game ROMs from the filesystem, and even add features like cheats and save-states. The widespread availability of those devices dramatically shrank the market for NDS games. Developers were dropping off the platform well before the 3DS came out, and Nintendo started to pay much more attention to DRM. It was sort of a sad situation. The ability to write your own software for a handheld game console was amazing in the 2000s, but that openness ended up suffocating the platform.

tomrod 5y ago
They should adjust the business model to address market demand. Be a platform, not (just) a console. Works great for Apple and Play!
- fastball 5y ago
  Apple has put a lot of effort into making app piracy very difficult on their platform, arguably more than Nintendo.
- baud147258 5y ago
  Being just a platform didn't work so well for Atari (see the crash of 1983). And both the Apple and Play stores have a terrible reputation for allowing (nearly) anything on their stores, which is something that Nintendo would want to avoid.
  - MiddleEndian 5y ago
    App stores are the worst of both worlds, IMO. On a PC, you get the freedom to install what you want. On consoles, you get a certification of quality, integration, and style for the console. Everything fits with well-defined hardware as well. And since it's just video games, it's not a huge deal if it's limited, you can always install indie games on your actual PC. With an app store, you just get shovelware that is unduly promoted combined with a gatekeeping what software you can run on your device, which could have otherwise been open.
- remram 5y ago
  Wouldn't that "platform" need DRM to attract third-party developers too?
  - johnnyanmac 5y ago
    Yes, this is the issue GOG continuously ran into in order to maintain their DRM-free philosophy. DRM is a move made to please publishers, not comsumers.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      GOG recently made an official statement that they're fine with DRM as long as it only affects multiplayer. That was a sad day. They haven't seen fit to change their homepage copy of "We are GOG.COM, the DRM-free home for a curated selection of games."
wheybags 5y ago
They've been burned since the NES. The piracy cat and mouse game is as old as consoles.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  The flash cart era was particularly bad since these carts were so easy to obtain (sold in retail stores) and the internet was available to download games from. These days they have mostly won through DRM and tying in online multiplayer which can not be pirated.
- Findecanor 5y ago
  Even the NES had circuitry against running games that were pirated, unlicensed or for the wrong region. There were workarounds but it didn't get cracked for over twenty years. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8PYE8A-WEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8PYE8A-WEw>
  - mosfetarium 5y ago
    I don't think it gets quite mentioned explicitly in this video, and don't I know if it's what the parent comment was referring to, but I recently learned the interesting detail that this lock system was invented for the international NES, and was not a feature of the original japanese Famicom. And apparently Nintendo did have a bit of a problem with large numbers of bad unlicensed games in that market. This apparently was a small motivator in the development in the japan-only Famicom Disk System, a floppy-disc-like drive addon, which did use a protection system that amusingly was based around trademark law. There was a number of other interesting elements about the Disk System, but I'll suppress my desire to vg history ramble :)
arcticbull 5y ago
> The widespread availability of those devices dramatically shrank the market for NDS games. Developers were dropping off the platform well before the 3DS came out, and Nintendo started to pay much more attention to DRM. Do you have a source for this? All the data I've seen shows piracy really doesn't impact content creators in a meaningful way. ... the study concluded that there was no evidence that piracy affects copyrighted sales, and in the case of video games, might actually help them. [1] Curious why you think this applies to the NDS but not in general. [1] https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact.html https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-pira...
- jmchuster 5y ago
  Here's one studio's opinion “We definitely found that piracy was a significant factor in our Nintendo DS development efforts. When we approached publishers to propose potential game projects with them, most of them brought up their concerns about piracy at some point. Many publishers even cited the issue of piracy as a specific reason why they decided to back away from our game project, especially with it being an original intellectual property concept. The publishers’ fear was that, in a climate where piracy is commonplace, original games and new mechanics are far less likely to be successful than games based on previously successful mechanics, established licenses, sequels, and sports.” https://nintendoeverything.com/dreamrift-on-how-ds-piracy-affected-publishers-3ds-piracy-concerns/ https://nintendoeverything.com/dreamrift-on-how-ds-piracy-af...
  - Groxx 5y ago
    That page seems to summarize as "publishers worry about piracy, so they reject original content and force sequels/sports/crap" (... that makes zero sense to me, but to continue) plus "an original-content game maker will stop developing for the DS when publishers force sequels/ports/crap". And they're all fearing the ecosystem decline that occurs when the publishers start forcing crap. I mean... I think I can point to the cause of the problem in that relationship. And I won't be pointing at the pirates.
    - 5y ago
mcphage 5y ago
> The widespread availability of those devices dramatically shrank the market for NDS games. Nintendo sold just shy of a billion software titles for the DS, far more than the Gameboy and Gameboy Advance combined. So when you say "dramatically shrank"… compared to what?!
JetAlone 5y ago
That reminds me, I recently watched a video on "Bob's Game". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game The dev was operating at that homebrew level, developing his own IP, but he was unhappy with anything less than the "peace of mind" that came with being given the official tools and access to the platform afforded an established developer. Ironically, he was concerned about piracy of his game, yet it was the openness to piracy that allowed him to even develop it for that platform in the first place.
alephaleph 5y ago
Huh, I remember the NDS having a huge library, was Nintendo really having trouble getting people to develop for it?
wodenokoto 5y ago
I bought the switch fully expecting such devices to be available within a year or two … how naive of me.

tomrod 5y ago

They should adjust the business model to address market demand. Be a platform, not (just) a console. Works great for Apple and Play!

fastball 5y ago
Apple has put a lot of effort into making app piracy very difficult on their platform, arguably more than Nintendo.
baud147258 5y ago
Being just a platform didn't work so well for Atari (see the crash of 1983). And both the Apple and Play stores have a terrible reputation for allowing (nearly) anything on their stores, which is something that Nintendo would want to avoid.
- MiddleEndian 5y ago
  App stores are the worst of both worlds, IMO. On a PC, you get the freedom to install what you want. On consoles, you get a certification of quality, integration, and style for the console. Everything fits with well-defined hardware as well. And since it's just video games, it's not a huge deal if it's limited, you can always install indie games on your actual PC. With an app store, you just get shovelware that is unduly promoted combined with a gatekeeping what software you can run on your device, which could have otherwise been open.
remram 5y ago
Wouldn't that "platform" need DRM to attract third-party developers too?
- johnnyanmac 5y ago
  Yes, this is the issue GOG continuously ran into in order to maintain their DRM-free philosophy. DRM is a move made to please publishers, not comsumers.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    GOG recently made an official statement that they're fine with DRM as long as it only affects multiplayer. That was a sad day. They haven't seen fit to change their homepage copy of "We are GOG.COM, the DRM-free home for a curated selection of games."

wheybags 5y ago

They've been burned since the NES. The piracy cat and mouse game is as old as consoles.

Gigachad 5y ago
The flash cart era was particularly bad since these carts were so easy to obtain (sold in retail stores) and the internet was available to download games from. These days they have mostly won through DRM and tying in online multiplayer which can not be pirated.
Findecanor 5y ago
Even the NES had circuitry against running games that were pirated, unlicensed or for the wrong region. There were workarounds but it didn't get cracked for over twenty years. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8PYE8A-WEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8PYE8A-WEw>
- mosfetarium 5y ago
  I don't think it gets quite mentioned explicitly in this video, and don't I know if it's what the parent comment was referring to, but I recently learned the interesting detail that this lock system was invented for the international NES, and was not a feature of the original japanese Famicom. And apparently Nintendo did have a bit of a problem with large numbers of bad unlicensed games in that market. This apparently was a small motivator in the development in the japan-only Famicom Disk System, a floppy-disc-like drive addon, which did use a protection system that amusingly was based around trademark law. There was a number of other interesting elements about the Disk System, but I'll suppress my desire to vg history ramble :)

arcticbull 5y ago

> The widespread availability of those devices dramatically shrank the market for NDS games. Developers were dropping off the platform well before the 3DS came out, and Nintendo started to pay much more attention to DRM. Do you have a source for this? All the data I've seen shows piracy really doesn't impact content creators in a meaningful way. ... the study concluded that there was no evidence that piracy affects copyrighted sales, and in the case of video games, might actually help them. [1] Curious why you think this applies to the NDS but not in general. [1] https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-piracy-no-sales-impact.html https://www.engadget.com/2017-09-22-eu-suppressed-study-pira...

jmchuster 5y ago
Here's one studio's opinion “We definitely found that piracy was a significant factor in our Nintendo DS development efforts. When we approached publishers to propose potential game projects with them, most of them brought up their concerns about piracy at some point. Many publishers even cited the issue of piracy as a specific reason why they decided to back away from our game project, especially with it being an original intellectual property concept. The publishers’ fear was that, in a climate where piracy is commonplace, original games and new mechanics are far less likely to be successful than games based on previously successful mechanics, established licenses, sequels, and sports.” https://nintendoeverything.com/dreamrift-on-how-ds-piracy-affected-publishers-3ds-piracy-concerns/ https://nintendoeverything.com/dreamrift-on-how-ds-piracy-af...
- Groxx 5y ago
  That page seems to summarize as "publishers worry about piracy, so they reject original content and force sequels/sports/crap" (... that makes zero sense to me, but to continue) plus "an original-content game maker will stop developing for the DS when publishers force sequels/ports/crap". And they're all fearing the ecosystem decline that occurs when the publishers start forcing crap. I mean... I think I can point to the cause of the problem in that relationship. And I won't be pointing at the pirates.
  - 5y ago

mcphage 5y ago

> The widespread availability of those devices dramatically shrank the market for NDS games. Nintendo sold just shy of a billion software titles for the DS, far more than the Gameboy and Gameboy Advance combined. So when you say "dramatically shrank"… compared to what?!

JetAlone 5y ago

That reminds me, I recently watched a video on "Bob's Game". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game The dev was operating at that homebrew level, developing his own IP, but he was unhappy with anything less than the "peace of mind" that came with being given the official tools and access to the platform afforded an established developer. Ironically, he was concerned about piracy of his game, yet it was the openness to piracy that allowed him to even develop it for that platform in the first place.

alephaleph 5y ago

Huh, I remember the NDS having a huge library, was Nintendo really having trouble getting people to develop for it?

wodenokoto 5y ago

I bought the switch fully expecting such devices to be available within a year or two … how naive of me.