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My understanding is that Brompton have a patent on their particular fold configuration and so no one can copy it. I’m very much of the opinion that that fold is

My understanding is that Brompton have a patent on their particular fold configuration and so no one can copy it. I’m very much of the opinion that that fold is the most compact while keeping your cycling position close to that of a normal bike. Every other compact folding bike is fighting for a design against that patent, and it can’t be done. This looks to me like one of those designs, if the designers had been able to independently develop a fold without infringing Brompton they would have come up with something very similar to them, not this strange contraption. You can see the Brompton influence, one pivoting wheel and folding cross bar with a 45deg hinge. But they have had to compromise in order to not infringe the design resulting in a very odd seat design. I have spent many many hours trying to design a fold as good as Bromptons and haven’t managed too, it’s just too perfect.

throwaway81523 5y ago
That patent was from 1979 so it must be long expired.
- samwillis 5y ago
  Hmm, will have to dig into it and do some research as, if it is expired, why has no one copied the design? Edit: It seems to have been proven in court that they have copyright (rather than the old patent) of the design. A bit like the coke bottle design I suppose. https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the-brakes-on-copycats-but-its-not-over-yet/ https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the...
  - Asooka 5y ago
    Ugh, disgusting. Guess I'm never giving money to Brompton.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      I did and I didn't regret it for a second, it sees tons of use and is pretty much indestructible. The design is timeless and the second hand market for Bromptons is pretty good, they hold their value better than any car I've ever owned. The first five minutes require some care but after that it's super stable and very low on maintenance given the complexity of the folding. It's small enough that it fits the cargo space in my car where it normally lives so that I always have a bike with me wherever I go. If there is a downside that would be that even though the wheels are quite a bit bigger than the ones of the bike showcased here that the tires are very high pressure and need frequent topping up.
    - mattl 5y ago
      You find them copyrighting their work disgusting? Do you use CC0 for all your own work?
      - serf 5y ago
        I'm not parent but since this is framed as if it's a 'gotcha' question .. a) yes, when it's used anti-competitively; which it almost exclusively is. I haven't been sold on the idea that idea exclusivity funds creative and public works and value-stores. I tend to believe that capitol does that -- and I think capitol can be generated regardless of copyright state. b) Yes, I have a cc0 1.0 license on anything I release outside of the contracts i'm beholden to from other entities. My thingiverse profile, for one, is filled with general purpose models and assets that are all licensed cc0 1.0 -- these took real person-hours to produce and have actual value for some folks. other than the occassional irritation with persnickety users here and there I enjoy the work and view it as a social good -- I hope others find the work valuable and use it themselves; surely others exist with the same motivations.
        mattl 5y ago
        Yeah this is all reasonable. Parent felt a bit reactionary
        gilrain 5y ago
        Going off on someone because they “feel a bit reactionary” is very reactionary, you realize.
        mattl 5y ago
        My tone wasn’t the best for sure but I was more curious if that was their issue.
      - caslon 5y ago
        The concern is obviously not that copyright is inherently immoral, or whatever you're insinuating, even though there are valid objections against the current status quo of multi-century copyrights. The concern is that they're double-dipping. They had a patent. Patents expire after 20 years, but give you exclusive right to use an invention in the meantime. After a patent expires, what's supposed to happen is that anyone can make use of it. After the patent expired, they started abusing copyright to kill competition. It's incredibly unethical to try and have it both ways. They had their patent. Their patents is gone. Competitors should be allowed to use the technology in that patent, without worrying about a random court for some forsaken reason allowing them to abuse copyright to stop competitors from being able to compete.
  - joshlemer 5y ago
    Correct, and this is total malarkey.
    - infogulch 5y ago
      Filing for a design patent should invalidate any claim to copyright on the features of the design that are claimed in the patent. Pick your IP protection lane, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
      - webmaven 5y ago
        > Filing for a design patent should invalidate any claim to copyright on the features of the design that are claimed in the patent. Pick your IP protection lane, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Oh, I so wish that were true. Software is the poster child for multiple IP regimes applying to the same thing, with copyrights applying twice over (source code and object code/binary executable) as well as patents. Patents can in theory also be applicable to the compilation of source code into object code, but as far as I'm aware no one has pursued a case on that basis, and in any case open source compilers are now standard. But it gets even crazier when you start adding trademark and trade dress (ie. "look and feel" etc.) into the mix. Just about the only form of IP that in practice is invalidated by the other forms is trade secret, as the others all involve some form of disclosure or publication.
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    In the U.S., copyrighting a design merely means you can't reproduce the design documents. It has no effect on the design of an actual product (which would be covered by a design patent, which has a lifetime of 15 years). (Brompton is a UK company, so this wouldn't apply to UK-based competitors, but it would protect US-based competitors.) EDIT: it looks like the EU actually has similar rules. Brompton is very likely going to lose this case, and is probably just counting on the court proceedings to delay this competitor's entry into the market. Expect a flood of Brompton-likes when the lawsuit settles.
audiometry 5y ago
No. There are lots of Chinese and Korean knock off Bromptons available. Our shop has noted that Brompton bottom brackets are low quality. Often poorly aligned to the frame and the threading frequently needs chased.
- samwillis 5y ago
  That confirms my point, the “knock off” makers are unable to optimise the design significantly further than a “real” Brompton. They have decided that the overall design as is perfect as you can get (other than component/manufacturing improvements). Due to copyright regulations and court orders in the UK and EU the knock off can not be imported and sold.
  - InCityDreams 5y ago
    ...i wonder if brexit will have implications for these regulations.

throwaway81523 5y ago

That patent was from 1979 so it must be long expired.

samwillis 5y ago
Hmm, will have to dig into it and do some research as, if it is expired, why has no one copied the design? Edit: It seems to have been proven in court that they have copyright (rather than the old patent) of the design. A bit like the coke bottle design I suppose. https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the-brakes-on-copycats-but-its-not-over-yet/ https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the...
- Asooka 5y ago
  Ugh, disgusting. Guess I'm never giving money to Brompton.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I did and I didn't regret it for a second, it sees tons of use and is pretty much indestructible. The design is timeless and the second hand market for Bromptons is pretty good, they hold their value better than any car I've ever owned. The first five minutes require some care but after that it's super stable and very low on maintenance given the complexity of the folding. It's small enough that it fits the cargo space in my car where it normally lives so that I always have a bike with me wherever I go. If there is a downside that would be that even though the wheels are quite a bit bigger than the ones of the bike showcased here that the tires are very high pressure and need frequent topping up.
  - mattl 5y ago
    You find them copyrighting their work disgusting? Do you use CC0 for all your own work?
    - serf 5y ago
      I'm not parent but since this is framed as if it's a 'gotcha' question .. a) yes, when it's used anti-competitively; which it almost exclusively is. I haven't been sold on the idea that idea exclusivity funds creative and public works and value-stores. I tend to believe that capitol does that -- and I think capitol can be generated regardless of copyright state. b) Yes, I have a cc0 1.0 license on anything I release outside of the contracts i'm beholden to from other entities. My thingiverse profile, for one, is filled with general purpose models and assets that are all licensed cc0 1.0 -- these took real person-hours to produce and have actual value for some folks. other than the occassional irritation with persnickety users here and there I enjoy the work and view it as a social good -- I hope others find the work valuable and use it themselves; surely others exist with the same motivations.
      - mattl 5y ago
        Yeah this is all reasonable. Parent felt a bit reactionary
        gilrain 5y ago
        Going off on someone because they “feel a bit reactionary” is very reactionary, you realize.
        mattl 5y ago
        My tone wasn’t the best for sure but I was more curious if that was their issue.
    - caslon 5y ago
      The concern is obviously not that copyright is inherently immoral, or whatever you're insinuating, even though there are valid objections against the current status quo of multi-century copyrights. The concern is that they're double-dipping. They had a patent. Patents expire after 20 years, but give you exclusive right to use an invention in the meantime. After a patent expires, what's supposed to happen is that anyone can make use of it. After the patent expired, they started abusing copyright to kill competition. It's incredibly unethical to try and have it both ways. They had their patent. Their patents is gone. Competitors should be allowed to use the technology in that patent, without worrying about a random court for some forsaken reason allowing them to abuse copyright to stop competitors from being able to compete.
- joshlemer 5y ago
  Correct, and this is total malarkey.
  - infogulch 5y ago
    Filing for a design patent should invalidate any claim to copyright on the features of the design that are claimed in the patent. Pick your IP protection lane, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
    - webmaven 5y ago
      > Filing for a design patent should invalidate any claim to copyright on the features of the design that are claimed in the patent. Pick your IP protection lane, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Oh, I so wish that were true. Software is the poster child for multiple IP regimes applying to the same thing, with copyrights applying twice over (source code and object code/binary executable) as well as patents. Patents can in theory also be applicable to the compilation of source code into object code, but as far as I'm aware no one has pursued a case on that basis, and in any case open source compilers are now standard. But it gets even crazier when you start adding trademark and trade dress (ie. "look and feel" etc.) into the mix. Just about the only form of IP that in practice is invalidated by the other forms is trade secret, as the others all involve some form of disclosure or publication.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  In the U.S., copyrighting a design merely means you can't reproduce the design documents. It has no effect on the design of an actual product (which would be covered by a design patent, which has a lifetime of 15 years). (Brompton is a UK company, so this wouldn't apply to UK-based competitors, but it would protect US-based competitors.) EDIT: it looks like the EU actually has similar rules. Brompton is very likely going to lose this case, and is probably just counting on the court proceedings to delay this competitor's entry into the market. Expect a flood of Brompton-likes when the lawsuit settles.

audiometry 5y ago

No. There are lots of Chinese and Korean knock off Bromptons available. Our shop has noted that Brompton bottom brackets are low quality. Often poorly aligned to the frame and the threading frequently needs chased.

samwillis 5y ago
That confirms my point, the “knock off” makers are unable to optimise the design significantly further than a “real” Brompton. They have decided that the overall design as is perfect as you can get (other than component/manufacturing improvements). Due to copyright regulations and court orders in the UK and EU the knock off can not be imported and sold.
- InCityDreams 5y ago
  ...i wonder if brexit will have implications for these regulations.