5 ms·

It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murde

It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murder.

ryan93 5y ago
The disparity is so wide that we know with 100% confidence the black murder rate is a decent multiple of the white rate. Murder is relatively easy to track since there is a body
- etchalon 5y ago
  Even if we accept there's a multiplier, we have no idea what that multiplier should be. Accepting the disparity that exists because "well, it's more." is, if nothing else, lazy.
  - ryan93 5y ago
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
    - etchalon 5y ago
      https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race_and_wrongful_convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - ryan93 5y ago
        "93% of black murder victims are killed by members of their own race." and there are a lot of black murder victims.
        etchalon 5y ago
        That the authors of the paper included that statistic, based on the exact same data set you linked, without acknowledging that their own paper is arguing there is a massive disparity in wrongful conviction rates and thus FBI data set is, I believe, a benign mistake by the author. We do not have a good understanding of the violence incidence rate amongst Black Americans (or any demographic). We do have a precise understanding of victimization across demographics. But, even if you just assume that any wrongfully convicted Black American would be replaced by a different Black offender, you still have to deal with the disparity in wrongful convictions and its implications in terms of criminal justice and race. That you managed to skim that paper and find the one already established statistic from the same flawed data set, without considering those implications is unsurprising.
        twofornone 5y ago
        >We do not have a good understanding of the violence incidence rate amongst Black Americans (or any demographic). We do have a precise understanding of victimization across demographics. You are bending over backwards to deny the fact that black men are killing black men in black communities in significantly higher numbers than any other group. No amount of false convictions erases this fact, the bodies are hard to miss. That alone indicates a cause other than discrimination in the legal system.
        etchalon 5y ago
        I'm not denying that fact. I'm debating the precision of the statistic, and pointing towards other evidenced disparities that are not directly related to the murder rate. You seem to be bending over backward to skim past those, focusing on a single statistic that allows you to push a simplistic, prejudiced narrative. Even if the murder rate disparities are 100% accurate, that does not explain or justify any of the other disparities we see in evidence.
        ryan93 5y ago
        The number of black people in prison would PLUMMET if they didn’t commit crimes. Same for every race. Makes it hard to give a shit. You are obviously right that innocent people are in prison and I’m right the black murder rate is high
twofornone 5y ago
Right, all those inner city murders in overwhelmingly black neighborhoods are being committed by white supremacists from out of town. Don't you think you're reaching a little? Or do you honestly mean to imply that whites commit just as much murder per capita, but are simply 10x more likely to avoid arrest and conviction, because racism?

It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murder.

ryan93 5y ago

The disparity is so wide that we know with 100% confidence the black murder rate is a decent multiple of the white rate. Murder is relatively easy to track since there is a body

etchalon 5y ago
Even if we accept there's a multiplier, we have no idea what that multiplier should be. Accepting the disparity that exists because "well, it's more." is, if nothing else, lazy.
- ryan93 5y ago
  https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
  - etchalon 5y ago
    https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race_and_wrongful_convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ryan93 5y ago
      "93% of black murder victims are killed by members of their own race." and there are a lot of black murder victims.
      - etchalon 5y ago
        That the authors of the paper included that statistic, based on the exact same data set you linked, without acknowledging that their own paper is arguing there is a massive disparity in wrongful conviction rates and thus FBI data set is, I believe, a benign mistake by the author. We do not have a good understanding of the violence incidence rate amongst Black Americans (or any demographic). We do have a precise understanding of victimization across demographics. But, even if you just assume that any wrongfully convicted Black American would be replaced by a different Black offender, you still have to deal with the disparity in wrongful convictions and its implications in terms of criminal justice and race. That you managed to skim that paper and find the one already established statistic from the same flawed data set, without considering those implications is unsurprising.
        twofornone 5y ago
        >We do not have a good understanding of the violence incidence rate amongst Black Americans (or any demographic). We do have a precise understanding of victimization across demographics. You are bending over backwards to deny the fact that black men are killing black men in black communities in significantly higher numbers than any other group. No amount of false convictions erases this fact, the bodies are hard to miss. That alone indicates a cause other than discrimination in the legal system.
        etchalon 5y ago
        I'm not denying that fact. I'm debating the precision of the statistic, and pointing towards other evidenced disparities that are not directly related to the murder rate. You seem to be bending over backward to skim past those, focusing on a single statistic that allows you to push a simplistic, prejudiced narrative. Even if the murder rate disparities are 100% accurate, that does not explain or justify any of the other disparities we see in evidence.
        ryan93 5y ago
        The number of black people in prison would PLUMMET if they didn’t commit crimes. Same for every race. Makes it hard to give a shit. You are obviously right that innocent people are in prison and I’m right the black murder rate is high

twofornone 5y ago

Right, all those inner city murders in overwhelmingly black neighborhoods are being committed by white supremacists from out of town. Don't you think you're reaching a little? Or do you honestly mean to imply that whites commit just as much murder per capita, but are simply 10x more likely to avoid arrest and conviction, because racism?