4 ms·

Things win by out-competing other things. Competition works, and is important, because you would rather make $1 for yourself even if it reduces someone else's

by zrm 5y ago

Things win by out-competing other things. Competition works, and is important, because you would rather make $1 for yourself even if it reduces someone else's profit by $10. Which is how the market gets $9 more efficient. Sometimes the status quo sucks. This is often caused by a lack of competition or some kind of information problem. In media it's a little of both, but the main one is that people don't understand how they're being manipulated because the people they rely on to help them understand things are the ones manipulating them. Social media algorithms aren't designed to make you happy or informed. They're designed to make you spend all day on social media. It's not that hard to design algorithms to do the opposite. That's not the problem. The problem is people aren't informed of the choice, or don't have a choice because the network effect locks them in and the network doesn't let them choose the algorithm. So we need to solve two problems. First, divorce the network from the algorithm, so people can choose. Second, people need to be informed, so they choose the one that works for them instead of against them. The person who figures out how to do this gets the $1 at the expense of costing Facebook $10. But they're currently getting nothing, and 10% of what the incumbents get is still a lot. So who wants to make money?

adfgadfgaery 5y ago
otterley 5y ago
If you can figure out how to make quality journalism profitable again, there are plenty of people who would love to find out.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  Every news source that maintains a paywall should get with Apple, Google and maybe Microsoft and Facebook/Meta and set up a syndication arrangement using all of these companies (at a minimum) as access points. Then, offer an "all access pass" where someone can pay, say, $1000 or $2000 a year, access any news article from a participating provider, and never encounter another paywall, anywhere. Additionally, for $5000/year, access is ad-free. The universal subscription fee would be divided among the syndicate itself for distribution to its members as well as its access provider. The majority (but not all) of the revenue would be allocated to the members on the basis of how many times their articles were actually read. You're welcome! Any other apparently-unsolvable problems need solving, you guys know where to find me.
  - torbTurret 5y ago
    Nobody will pay four-figures for digital news access that still has ads.
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      That's a negotiating point, not a dealbreaker. The important thing is to offer both options. What would keep this plan from working is if there were a lot of major holdouts that insist on keeping their own paywalls and subscription model. Can't account for that level of stupidity, but the market will eventually eliminate it. Apple News in its current state is a step in the right direction, they just need to bring it to its logical conclusion.
    - otterley 5y ago
      I'm not sure most people would pay 4 figures, or even 3, for access to quality journalism - even if it didn't have ads. I remember when the Wall Street Journal came out on the Internet in 1997 - it was completely paywalled (no free articles at all), and the early pricing was scorned by critics and the public, even if it wasn't astronomical ($50/year for non-print subscribers, $29/year for print subscribers).
      - CamperBob2 5y ago
        What we know doesn't work are thousands of individual paywalls and associated subscriptions. Can you imagine journalism continuing on this path for another 20 years? I feel quite strongly that syndication is the only possible solution, if we're going to compensate journalists fairly. One subscription, no user-hostile gatekeepers or paywalls, no artificial barriers to either publication or exploration. Apart from that, it's no longer 1997, and people are used to paying for stuff online. Frequently they pay a LOT for stuff online. There is nothing radical about this.
        AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        Centralization has several serious problems. How do you determine who gets paid? If it's by impressions, you have all the clickbait problems as with advertising. What happens when the central gatekeeper decides they've had enough of anyone criticizing their interests and starts booting people out who do? Or journalists self-censor for fear of that? What do we do about privacy? Having a big database of everything everyone reads is bad. Tying it to payment info and therefore identity is unacceptable. We do not make lists for future fascists or communists. In theory it's possible to address this with cryptography and zero knowledge proofs, but we all know it won't be in a centralized system, because they want to track and control everything you read. Meanwhile the real problem with subscription fees is people read different sources in different amounts. If you read one religiously, you pay the $5/month. But it should be possible to get the articles a la carte for a low price, e.g. $0.10 each, for the publications you don't read all the time. So the thing we really need here is an anonymous payments system with low transaction fees. The blockchain people keep trying to do this, and let them if they can, but how about this. A payment processor that uses the cryptography and the zero knowledge proofs. They know who you are, you pay them, you get a secret which allows you to spend the money. Now you can use the secret to pay for articles or anything else, and the payment processor debits your account and credits the seller's, but they can't tell who you paid, only that you paid someone and someone paid them. This would be highly useful in general, but especially here. This might require some constraints like not supporting chargebacks, or maybe the cryptographers can figure it out. But if you can make an anonymous $0.10 transaction with no transaction fee, that's a solution.
majormajor 5y ago
This assumes that people feel "worked against" by the current systems. Facebook achieved market dominance in an open market, it's hard to convincingly argue that they won by doing things against the desires of the market. So the market would work for a problem like "Facebook is too expensive and doesn't need to be." But Facebook is already free, so you can't easily beat it on that point (it's unlikely that your thing would be so profitable you could meaningfully pay users to take them away from FB). But we don't have to simply blindly accept that the result of market competition == the outcome that we'd all choose if we thought about the big picture and not just the in-the-moment choices. How does market competition divorce the network from the algorithm? Keep in mind that Facebook actively tunes their algorithm to give people more and more (short term) emotional reward for engagement. A third party would have to convince people that they actually want stuff different than what they've currently been responding to, and that they should leave FB to get it (versus just behaving differently on FB to get a different version of the product). There's already a lot of alternatives for news - I personally decided FB wasn't right for me (nor was any "social media" network) and got a newspaper subscription instead - but they're hardly seeing mass adoption from people migrating away from Facebook.
- specialist 5y ago
  Where does ethics fit into your thesis?
  - majormajor 5y ago
    The natural extension of "we don't have to simply blindly accept that the result of market competition == the outcome that we'd all choose if we thought about the big picture and not just the in-the-moment choices" is that we would definitely not assume "the result of market competition == anything ethical." Changing outcomes/behaviors to ensure people act ethically would have to come from an outside-the-market force, like government.
- zrm 5y ago
  > Facebook achieved market dominance in an open market, it's hard to convincingly argue that they won by doing things against the desires of the market. This is the information asymmetry. People sign up without understanding how the algorithm works, or sign up not knowing that the corporation can change the algorithm at any time to make it more abusive. Then the network effect locks them in even if some eventually figure it out. So beating them in the market takes two things. First, yours has to be better. Designing something which is better at the expense of being less (but not un-) profitable is straightforward. Let users choose the algorithm, they'll typically want one that optimizes for quality over volume etc., so you'll make less money but not none. Second, people have to know yours is better. This is the information problem. This is also partially a coordination problem. You need everyone to find out quickly enough that enough can switch together and overcome the network effect before the early people forget about it or try it and give up because no one else is there. That's not a trivial problem but it's hardly a violation of the laws of physics either. And if you can do it one time, the network effect is now in your favor. > How does market competition divorce the network from the algorithm? Because that's how you get people to switch from Facebook. That's the competitive advantage that Facebook doesn't have. Not locking you into a specific algorithm, which informed users would prefer once they learn the consequences of not having that. In theory Facebook could see this coming and do this voluntarily. Then it would lose 90% rather than 100% of its profits because it couldn't optimize for getting people to spend all day on Facebook once users could choose an algorithm that doesn't do that. Or their refusal to do this creates an opportunity for someone else to.

by zrm 5y ago

adfgadfgaery 5y ago

otterley 5y ago

If you can figure out how to make quality journalism profitable again, there are plenty of people who would love to find out.

CamperBob2 5y ago
Every news source that maintains a paywall should get with Apple, Google and maybe Microsoft and Facebook/Meta and set up a syndication arrangement using all of these companies (at a minimum) as access points. Then, offer an "all access pass" where someone can pay, say, $1000 or $2000 a year, access any news article from a participating provider, and never encounter another paywall, anywhere. Additionally, for $5000/year, access is ad-free. The universal subscription fee would be divided among the syndicate itself for distribution to its members as well as its access provider. The majority (but not all) of the revenue would be allocated to the members on the basis of how many times their articles were actually read. You're welcome! Any other apparently-unsolvable problems need solving, you guys know where to find me.
- torbTurret 5y ago
  Nobody will pay four-figures for digital news access that still has ads.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    That's a negotiating point, not a dealbreaker. The important thing is to offer both options. What would keep this plan from working is if there were a lot of major holdouts that insist on keeping their own paywalls and subscription model. Can't account for that level of stupidity, but the market will eventually eliminate it. Apple News in its current state is a step in the right direction, they just need to bring it to its logical conclusion.
  - otterley 5y ago
    I'm not sure most people would pay 4 figures, or even 3, for access to quality journalism - even if it didn't have ads. I remember when the Wall Street Journal came out on the Internet in 1997 - it was completely paywalled (no free articles at all), and the early pricing was scorned by critics and the public, even if it wasn't astronomical ($50/year for non-print subscribers, $29/year for print subscribers).
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      What we know doesn't work are thousands of individual paywalls and associated subscriptions. Can you imagine journalism continuing on this path for another 20 years? I feel quite strongly that syndication is the only possible solution, if we're going to compensate journalists fairly. One subscription, no user-hostile gatekeepers or paywalls, no artificial barriers to either publication or exploration. Apart from that, it's no longer 1997, and people are used to paying for stuff online. Frequently they pay a LOT for stuff online. There is nothing radical about this.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        Centralization has several serious problems. How do you determine who gets paid? If it's by impressions, you have all the clickbait problems as with advertising. What happens when the central gatekeeper decides they've had enough of anyone criticizing their interests and starts booting people out who do? Or journalists self-censor for fear of that? What do we do about privacy? Having a big database of everything everyone reads is bad. Tying it to payment info and therefore identity is unacceptable. We do not make lists for future fascists or communists. In theory it's possible to address this with cryptography and zero knowledge proofs, but we all know it won't be in a centralized system, because they want to track and control everything you read. Meanwhile the real problem with subscription fees is people read different sources in different amounts. If you read one religiously, you pay the $5/month. But it should be possible to get the articles a la carte for a low price, e.g. $0.10 each, for the publications you don't read all the time. So the thing we really need here is an anonymous payments system with low transaction fees. The blockchain people keep trying to do this, and let them if they can, but how about this. A payment processor that uses the cryptography and the zero knowledge proofs. They know who you are, you pay them, you get a secret which allows you to spend the money. Now you can use the secret to pay for articles or anything else, and the payment processor debits your account and credits the seller's, but they can't tell who you paid, only that you paid someone and someone paid them. This would be highly useful in general, but especially here. This might require some constraints like not supporting chargebacks, or maybe the cryptographers can figure it out. But if you can make an anonymous $0.10 transaction with no transaction fee, that's a solution.

majormajor 5y ago

This assumes that people feel "worked against" by the current systems. Facebook achieved market dominance in an open market, it's hard to convincingly argue that they won by doing things against the desires of the market. So the market would work for a problem like "Facebook is too expensive and doesn't need to be." But Facebook is already free, so you can't easily beat it on that point (it's unlikely that your thing would be so profitable you could meaningfully pay users to take them away from FB). But we don't have to simply blindly accept that the result of market competition == the outcome that we'd all choose if we thought about the big picture and not just the in-the-moment choices. How does market competition divorce the network from the algorithm? Keep in mind that Facebook actively tunes their algorithm to give people more and more (short term) emotional reward for engagement. A third party would have to convince people that they actually want stuff different than what they've currently been responding to, and that they should leave FB to get it (versus just behaving differently on FB to get a different version of the product). There's already a lot of alternatives for news - I personally decided FB wasn't right for me (nor was any "social media" network) and got a newspaper subscription instead - but they're hardly seeing mass adoption from people migrating away from Facebook.

specialist 5y ago
Where does ethics fit into your thesis?
- majormajor 5y ago
  The natural extension of "we don't have to simply blindly accept that the result of market competition == the outcome that we'd all choose if we thought about the big picture and not just the in-the-moment choices" is that we would definitely not assume "the result of market competition == anything ethical." Changing outcomes/behaviors to ensure people act ethically would have to come from an outside-the-market force, like government.
zrm 5y ago
> Facebook achieved market dominance in an open market, it's hard to convincingly argue that they won by doing things against the desires of the market. This is the information asymmetry. People sign up without understanding how the algorithm works, or sign up not knowing that the corporation can change the algorithm at any time to make it more abusive. Then the network effect locks them in even if some eventually figure it out. So beating them in the market takes two things. First, yours has to be better. Designing something which is better at the expense of being less (but not un-) profitable is straightforward. Let users choose the algorithm, they'll typically want one that optimizes for quality over volume etc., so you'll make less money but not none. Second, people have to know yours is better. This is the information problem. This is also partially a coordination problem. You need everyone to find out quickly enough that enough can switch together and overcome the network effect before the early people forget about it or try it and give up because no one else is there. That's not a trivial problem but it's hardly a violation of the laws of physics either. And if you can do it one time, the network effect is now in your favor. > How does market competition divorce the network from the algorithm? Because that's how you get people to switch from Facebook. That's the competitive advantage that Facebook doesn't have. Not locking you into a specific algorithm, which informed users would prefer once they learn the consequences of not having that. In theory Facebook could see this coming and do this voluntarily. Then it would lose 90% rather than 100% of its profits because it couldn't optimize for getting people to spend all day on Facebook once users could choose an algorithm that doesn't do that. Or their refusal to do this creates an opportunity for someone else to.