4 ms·

Please explain the different outcomes between second gen African immigrants and American whites. Under your theory every demographic is obligated to want and be

by ryan93 5y ago

Please explain the different outcomes between second gen African immigrants and American whites. Under your theory every demographic is obligated to want and behave the same as any other. Smart women choosing medicine instead of electrical engineering is prima facie evidence to you some kind of discrimination happened.

etchalon 5y ago
My point wasn't "any difference in outcome is the result of discrimination" it was explicitly "you cannot use the difference in outcome as evidence there should be a difference in outcome." This is why these differences are studied.
- twofornone 5y ago
  The other commenter wrote that is black people commit more murders then it isn't surprising to see more black people in prison for murder. That's not circular, that's an expected outcome. Are you simply unwilling to acknowledge any (subjectively) negative differences between cultures? Does culture influence decisionmaking or not? Is respect for law and academic achievement not a cultural trait? This is such a trivially obvious argument if you are willing to move past the irrational taboo that relegates us to pretending that culture can only vary positively. Does culture influence behavior and decisionmaking or not?
  - etchalon 5y ago
    It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murder.
    - ryan93 5y ago
      The disparity is so wide that we know with 100% confidence the black murder rate is a decent multiple of the white rate. Murder is relatively easy to track since there is a body
      - etchalon 5y ago
        Even if we accept there's a multiplier, we have no idea what that multiplier should be. Accepting the disparity that exists because "well, it's more." is, if nothing else, lazy.
        ryan93 5y ago
        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
        etchalon 5y ago
        https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race_and_wrongful_convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ryan93 5y ago
        "93% of black murder victims are killed by members of their own race." and there are a lot of black murder victims.
        etchalon 5y ago
        That the authors of the paper included that statistic, based on the exact same data set you linked, without acknowledging that their own paper is arguing there is a massive disparity in wrongful conviction rates and thus FBI data set is, I believe, a benign mistake by the author. We do not have a good understanding of the violence incidence rate amongst Black Americans (or any demographic). We do have a precise understanding of victimization across demographics. But, even if you just assume that any wrongfully convicted Black American would be replaced by a different Black offender, you still have to deal with the disparity in wrongful convictions and its implications in terms of criminal justice and race. That you managed to skim that paper and find the one already established statistic from the same flawed data set, without considering those implications is unsurprising.
    - twofornone 5y ago
      Right, all those inner city murders in overwhelmingly black neighborhoods are being committed by white supremacists from out of town. Don't you think you're reaching a little? Or do you honestly mean to imply that whites commit just as much murder per capita, but are simply 10x more likely to avoid arrest and conviction, because racism?

by ryan93 5y ago

etchalon 5y ago

My point wasn't "any difference in outcome is the result of discrimination" it was explicitly "you cannot use the difference in outcome as evidence there should be a difference in outcome." This is why these differences are studied.

twofornone 5y ago
The other commenter wrote that is black people commit more murders then it isn't surprising to see more black people in prison for murder. That's not circular, that's an expected outcome. Are you simply unwilling to acknowledge any (subjectively) negative differences between cultures? Does culture influence decisionmaking or not? Is respect for law and academic achievement not a cultural trait? This is such a trivially obvious argument if you are willing to move past the irrational taboo that relegates us to pretending that culture can only vary positively. Does culture influence behavior and decisionmaking or not?
- etchalon 5y ago
  It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murder.
  - ryan93 5y ago
    The disparity is so wide that we know with 100% confidence the black murder rate is a decent multiple of the white rate. Murder is relatively easy to track since there is a body
    - etchalon 5y ago
      Even if we accept there's a multiplier, we have no idea what that multiplier should be. Accepting the disparity that exists because "well, it's more." is, if nothing else, lazy.
      - ryan93 5y ago
        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
        etchalon 5y ago
        https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race_and_wrongful_convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ryan93 5y ago
        "93% of black murder victims are killed by members of their own race." and there are a lot of black murder victims.
        etchalon 5y ago
        That the authors of the paper included that statistic, based on the exact same data set you linked, without acknowledging that their own paper is arguing there is a massive disparity in wrongful conviction rates and thus FBI data set is, I believe, a benign mistake by the author. We do not have a good understanding of the violence incidence rate amongst Black Americans (or any demographic). We do have a precise understanding of victimization across demographics. But, even if you just assume that any wrongfully convicted Black American would be replaced by a different Black offender, you still have to deal with the disparity in wrongful convictions and its implications in terms of criminal justice and race. That you managed to skim that paper and find the one already established statistic from the same flawed data set, without considering those implications is unsurprising.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    Right, all those inner city murders in overwhelmingly black neighborhoods are being committed by white supremacists from out of town. Don't you think you're reaching a little? Or do you honestly mean to imply that whites commit just as much murder per capita, but are simply 10x more likely to avoid arrest and conviction, because racism?