3 ms·

From Russia's perspective, they are pre-emptively preventing the further expansion of NATO towards their borders. For Russia, NATO expansion to the East looks l

by a0-prw 5y ago

From Russia's perspective, they are pre-emptively preventing the further expansion of NATO towards their borders. For Russia, NATO expansion to the East looks like the build up to an invasion. Hey, I don't say they're right, but they have experienced two major invasions from the West before. (Three if you count the Swedish one). It's pretty clear that they meant it seriously in 2007 in Munich that they would not tolerate it. Perhaps, just perhaps, the West has not acted wisely.

Eddy_Viscosity2 5y ago
Ironic that actions meant to pre-emptively prevent further expansion of NATO will likely result not only in further expansion of NATO but of strengthening of militaries in countries already part of NATO. Of all of the reasons put forth by various sources over why this is happening, the simplest is often the correct one (not always, but often), which is that Putin just wanted Ukraine back in his (i.e. Russia's) embrace. And nobody says no to Putin.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  Where is NATO going to expand to after Russia wins in Ukraine? This war changes everything. The most likely outcome is a massive, resource-rich Eurasian bloc with China as its center of gravity, with increasing influence in the (also resource-rich) developing world against a fading, culturally decadent, resource-poor West. This bs situation is terrible for the West. America will be different, but can survive. Europe will be absolutely fucked.
stared 5y ago
Let me repeat: Ukraine is a sovereign country. It can look West, East, or neither. Furthermore, countries apply to join NATO rather than are being incorporated by force. It is neocolonialist to think that Ukraine is just a pawn between NATO and Russia. Justifying the Russian attack goes the same way as "because her skirt was too short... oh, no, no - it wasn't her fault but of society, which lets women dress like that". It's always the aggressor's fault, full stop. For a comparison, NATO didn't perform a land invasion on Belarus when it became a Russian vassal state.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  It's not a valid comparison. Russia isn't "raping" Ukraine because her skirt was too short. It's defending itself (from Russia's point of view) because Ukraine is (or was) making itself a NATO attack platform. The number one motivation of (rational) states is survival. And no, NATO is not a defensive alliance. They attacked Serbia and Libya.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> From Russia's perspective, they are pre-emptively preventing the further expansion of NATO towards their borders That's one piece of the Russian propaganda excuse, the one most engineered to fit with a Western audience, but it's not particularly plausible.

by a0-prw 5y ago

Eddy_Viscosity2 5y ago

Ironic that actions meant to pre-emptively prevent further expansion of NATO will likely result not only in further expansion of NATO but of strengthening of militaries in countries already part of NATO. Of all of the reasons put forth by various sources over why this is happening, the simplest is often the correct one (not always, but often), which is that Putin just wanted Ukraine back in his (i.e. Russia's) embrace. And nobody says no to Putin.

a0-prw 5y ago
Where is NATO going to expand to after Russia wins in Ukraine? This war changes everything. The most likely outcome is a massive, resource-rich Eurasian bloc with China as its center of gravity, with increasing influence in the (also resource-rich) developing world against a fading, culturally decadent, resource-poor West. This bs situation is terrible for the West. America will be different, but can survive. Europe will be absolutely fucked.

stared 5y ago

Let me repeat: Ukraine is a sovereign country. It can look West, East, or neither. Furthermore, countries apply to join NATO rather than are being incorporated by force. It is neocolonialist to think that Ukraine is just a pawn between NATO and Russia. Justifying the Russian attack goes the same way as "because her skirt was too short... oh, no, no - it wasn't her fault but of society, which lets women dress like that". It's always the aggressor's fault, full stop. For a comparison, NATO didn't perform a land invasion on Belarus when it became a Russian vassal state.

a0-prw 5y ago
It's not a valid comparison. Russia isn't "raping" Ukraine because her skirt was too short. It's defending itself (from Russia's point of view) because Ukraine is (or was) making itself a NATO attack platform. The number one motivation of (rational) states is survival. And no, NATO is not a defensive alliance. They attacked Serbia and Libya.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> From Russia's perspective, they are pre-emptively preventing the further expansion of NATO towards their borders That's one piece of the Russian propaganda excuse, the one most engineered to fit with a Western audience, but it's not particularly plausible.