5 ms·

If black people commit more murders it’s not discrimination if more black people are in prison for murder.

by ryan93 5y ago

etchalon 5y ago
Your statement hinges on circular reasoning, which is part of what CRT studies try to break apart. You can't use the outcome as evidence the outcome was justified.
- ryan93 5y ago
  Please explain the different outcomes between second gen African immigrants and American whites. Under your theory every demographic is obligated to want and behave the same as any other. Smart women choosing medicine instead of electrical engineering is prima facie evidence to you some kind of discrimination happened.
  - etchalon 5y ago
    My point wasn't "any difference in outcome is the result of discrimination" it was explicitly "you cannot use the difference in outcome as evidence there should be a difference in outcome." This is why these differences are studied.
    - twofornone 5y ago
      The other commenter wrote that is black people commit more murders then it isn't surprising to see more black people in prison for murder. That's not circular, that's an expected outcome. Are you simply unwilling to acknowledge any (subjectively) negative differences between cultures? Does culture influence decisionmaking or not? Is respect for law and academic achievement not a cultural trait? This is such a trivially obvious argument if you are willing to move past the irrational taboo that relegates us to pretending that culture can only vary positively. Does culture influence behavior and decisionmaking or not?
      - etchalon 5y ago
        It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murder.
        ryan93 5y ago
        The disparity is so wide that we know with 100% confidence the black murder rate is a decent multiple of the white rate. Murder is relatively easy to track since there is a body
        etchalon 5y ago
        Even if we accept there's a multiplier, we have no idea what that multiplier should be. Accepting the disparity that exists because "well, it's more." is, if nothing else, lazy.
        ryan93 5y ago
        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
        etchalon 5y ago
        https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race_and_wrongful_convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ryan93 5y ago
        "93% of black murder victims are killed by members of their own race." and there are a lot of black murder victims.
- Rury 5y ago
  It's not circular at all. Rephrased and generalized: "If more people end up in jail, because people are committing more crimes, it's not ____." Now add race: "If more black people end up in jail, because blacks are committing more crimes, it's not discrimination towards blacks, but discrimination towards crimes". But yes, to your point, you can't judge solely based on how many are in jail, that they must be committing more crimes... because the justice system isn't perfect, and innocents do end up in jail. But again, to the other's points, it's entirely in the realm of possibility that black people are in fact committing more crimes, and hence there should be disproportionately more of them in jail. As to whether that's actually the case, is not easy to say.

If black people commit more murders it’s not discrimination if more black people are in prison for murder.

by ryan93 5y ago

If black people commit more murders it’s not discrimination if more black people are in prison for murder.

Your statement hinges on circular reasoning, which is part of what CRT studies try to break apart. You can't use the outcome as evidence the outcome was justified.

ryan93 5y ago
Please explain the different outcomes between second gen African immigrants and American whites. Under your theory every demographic is obligated to want and behave the same as any other. Smart women choosing medicine instead of electrical engineering is prima facie evidence to you some kind of discrimination happened.
- etchalon 5y ago
  My point wasn't "any difference in outcome is the result of discrimination" it was explicitly "you cannot use the difference in outcome as evidence there should be a difference in outcome." This is why these differences are studied.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    The other commenter wrote that is black people commit more murders then it isn't surprising to see more black people in prison for murder. That's not circular, that's an expected outcome. Are you simply unwilling to acknowledge any (subjectively) negative differences between cultures? Does culture influence decisionmaking or not? Is respect for law and academic achievement not a cultural trait? This is such a trivially obvious argument if you are willing to move past the irrational taboo that relegates us to pretending that culture can only vary positively. Does culture influence behavior and decisionmaking or not?
    - etchalon 5y ago
      It's circular because we do not know how many Black Americans commit murder. We only know how many Black Americans are charged with and then convicted of murder.
      - ryan93 5y ago
        The disparity is so wide that we know with 100% confidence the black murder rate is a decent multiple of the white rate. Murder is relatively easy to track since there is a body
        etchalon 5y ago
        Even if we accept there's a multiplier, we have no idea what that multiplier should be. Accepting the disparity that exists because "well, it's more." is, if nothing else, lazy.
        ryan93 5y ago
        https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
        etchalon 5y ago
        https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race_and_wrongful_convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/documents/race...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ryan93 5y ago
        "93% of black murder victims are killed by members of their own race." and there are a lot of black murder victims.
Rury 5y ago
It's not circular at all. Rephrased and generalized: "If more people end up in jail, because people are committing more crimes, it's not ____." Now add race: "If more black people end up in jail, because blacks are committing more crimes, it's not discrimination towards blacks, but discrimination towards crimes". But yes, to your point, you can't judge solely based on how many are in jail, that they must be committing more crimes... because the justice system isn't perfect, and innocents do end up in jail. But again, to the other's points, it's entirely in the realm of possibility that black people are in fact committing more crimes, and hence there should be disproportionately more of them in jail. As to whether that's actually the case, is not easy to say.