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The document I remembered is I believe this one: https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jul/01/2002754533/-1/-1/0/6586785-NSA-KEY-ROLE-IN-MAJOR-DEVELOPMENTS-IN-COMPUTER

The document I remembered is I believe this one: https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jul/01/2002754533/-1/-1/0/6586785-NSA-KEY-ROLE-IN-MAJOR-DEVELOPMENTS-IN-COMPUTER-SCIENCE.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jul/01/2002754533/-1/-1/0/658... I'm thinking an interesting paragraph is: Already by the early 1960s, automation completely overshadowed : manual processing. Starting in the middle of that decade, NSA began purchasing : commercially developed computers in addition to building its own units. Agency : programmers often wrote specialized software that extended the cryptologic capabilities : of these on-the-shelf systems. The computer of choice was the IBM 7010. NSA also : used the minicomputers PDP-1 and PDP-10 as well as the UNIVAC 490, along with a : software developed at NSA known as RYE. The Honeywell Corporation also developed : the Honeywell 316 to accept manual Morse data from 128 different sources ; simultaneously and record it directly onto magnetic tape. As well, collection systems : even in remote sites became digitally based. Furthermore, computers also allowed for k the collection of a wider variety of signals, including ____________________ By 1968 NSA had over 100 computers, organized in complexes according to the type of processing performed. NSA's five acres of equipment became the largest collection of advanced computers in the United States and probably in the world. Another one is: There were other important computer firsts at NSA. A different supercomputer was developed by the Thinking Machine Corporation. This computer was known as the CM-5, or FROSTBURG. Built at a cost of $25 million, the CM-5 had a storage capacity of 500 gigawords and could perform 65 billion calculations per second. Designed to address higher-mathematics-related questions, FROSTBURG was one of the first true parallel processing computers. Also worth mentioning, when instaJJed the PACE 10 was the first analog desktop computer in use at NSA. This computer required the hand wiring of different panels for each type of mathematical calculation to be performed. Of further note, NSA developed many unique and pioneering software systems and databases, such as SOLIS, which held all NSA electronic product reports. One possible thing that happened is someone maybe translated the compute into layman's terms and in translation the 'flops' and 'MHz' was confused. So 65 billion ops per second in parallel, somehow became a processor with a clock speed of 650 MHz. Maybe there's not much difference between those two measurements: I'm not a supercomputer expert after all, and anyway I'm not definitely saying that's exactly what happened--I still believe they had secret tech way ahead of any documented in declassified releases--but it's one possibility. Ultimately, this thread was probably only going to be about speculating. Without any multiply corroborated first-hand information, most people can't say for sure one way ro the other. Thank you for that mildly interesting comment and those links. I appreciate the 90s refs! :) I think your reasoning about the economics, and business are definitely solid. But that would have to assume that such an advance was an actual product line known to the Cray business in general, and not a special compartmentalized project developed in secret. The latter case I don't think overarching business drivers would have much impact because of the veil of secrecy, and they wouldn't be, by definition, strapped for cash for such a project anyway. Ah, so you copied the other commenter! Hah :) Interesting. Whackadoodle is such a popular word that you're copying someone using it, and I never heard of it. I was going to search UB but I thought their descriptions are a little extreme, seems like it in this case too. Anyway, this is not the fun discussion of possible future tech breakthroughs that I'd hoped to encourage here, but what the hell let's roll with it. Anyway, what I really wanted to see here was lovely speculations about what possible things could they have had, how far they could have been ahead! Maybe next time! :)

eesmith 5y ago
> 65 billion ops per second in parallel, somehow became a processor with a clock speed of 650 MHz. That specific example is impossible. The CM-5 was 1990 technology. For all you know, that civilian could have said 650 kHz. > Without any multiply corroborated first-hand information, most people can't say for sure one way ro the other. We have that. We have lots of primary sources from that era which have been declassified. You and I both linked to pages with some of that historical information. We have people talking about their experiences. You can even see FROSTBURG in a museum. And yet you regard a single second- or third-hand, unverifiable claim by Dolan as having any meaningful weight? Why? > not a special compartmentalized project developed in secret. Then you know nothing about Cray Research, and are seemingly coming up with ways to patch your conspiracy theory - because what you are suggesting is a conspiracy theory. For your conspiracy theory to work, just where is this special compartmentalized project supposed to be located? Seymour Cray put CRI's R&D site in his home town of Chippewa Falls. Wikipedia informs me the population of the town in 1970 was 12,351. You don't hide a second project in a town like that. And Cray put it there so he wouldn't have to deal with business meetings. If Cray had another project, somewhere besides his home town, then he would either 1) be off-site often ... so why locate Cray's public R&D there at all?, or 2) have someone else better than Cray[1] working at the other site. It makes no sense unless you think there's thousands of people engaged not just in a conspiracy of silence, but also who managed to prevent any hint of tech transfer between the projects. > this is not the fun discussion of possible future tech breakthroughs Then as a suggestion, don't bring up cockamamie [2] conspiracies about topics you know little about ("I'm not a supercomputer expert") in the hopes of getting that discussion. There's a lot of literature about the history of supercomputing, the NSA, and related project. Read that literature to learn what sorts of multiple corroboration exist. Then you can seriously evaluate if alternative stories are a better fit to the evidence. [1] The blurb for "The supermen : the story of Seymour Cray and the technical wizards behind the supercomputer" (book available from https://archive.org/details/supermenstoryofs0000murr https://archive.org/details/supermenstoryofs0000murr ) says: > "After a rare speech at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, in 1976, programmers in the audience had suddenly fallen silent when Cray offered to answer questions. He stood there for several minutes, waiting for their queries, but none came. When he left, the head of NCAR's computing division chided the programmers. 'Why didn't someone raise a hand?' After a tense moment, one programmer replied, 'How do you talk to God?'" -from The SUPERMEN The Story of Seymour Cray and the Technical Wizards behind the Supercomputer Your conspiracy theory requires coming up with someone more clever than Cray as the tech lead, who never talk about it, and nothing ever became known about it. Except for an odd slip by a civilian. [2] This time I chose a word my father would use.

eesmith 5y ago

> 65 billion ops per second in parallel, somehow became a processor with a clock speed of 650 MHz. That specific example is impossible. The CM-5 was 1990 technology. For all you know, that civilian could have said 650 kHz. > Without any multiply corroborated first-hand information, most people can't say for sure one way ro the other. We have that. We have lots of primary sources from that era which have been declassified. You and I both linked to pages with some of that historical information. We have people talking about their experiences. You can even see FROSTBURG in a museum. And yet you regard a single second- or third-hand, unverifiable claim by Dolan as having any meaningful weight? Why? > not a special compartmentalized project developed in secret. Then you know nothing about Cray Research, and are seemingly coming up with ways to patch your conspiracy theory - because what you are suggesting is a conspiracy theory. For your conspiracy theory to work, just where is this special compartmentalized project supposed to be located? Seymour Cray put CRI's R&D site in his home town of Chippewa Falls. Wikipedia informs me the population of the town in 1970 was 12,351. You don't hide a second project in a town like that. And Cray put it there so he wouldn't have to deal with business meetings. If Cray had another project, somewhere besides his home town, then he would either 1) be off-site often ... so why locate Cray's public R&D there at all?, or 2) have someone else better than Cray[1] working at the other site. It makes no sense unless you think there's thousands of people engaged not just in a conspiracy of silence, but also who managed to prevent any hint of tech transfer between the projects. > this is not the fun discussion of possible future tech breakthroughs Then as a suggestion, don't bring up cockamamie [2] conspiracies about topics you know little about ("I'm not a supercomputer expert") in the hopes of getting that discussion. There's a lot of literature about the history of supercomputing, the NSA, and related project. Read that literature to learn what sorts of multiple corroboration exist. Then you can seriously evaluate if alternative stories are a better fit to the evidence. [1] The blurb for "The supermen : the story of Seymour Cray and the technical wizards behind the supercomputer" (book available from https://archive.org/details/supermenstoryofs0000murr https://archive.org/details/supermenstoryofs0000murr ) says: > "After a rare speech at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, in 1976, programmers in the audience had suddenly fallen silent when Cray offered to answer questions. He stood there for several minutes, waiting for their queries, but none came. When he left, the head of NCAR's computing division chided the programmers. 'Why didn't someone raise a hand?' After a tense moment, one programmer replied, 'How do you talk to God?'" -from The SUPERMEN The Story of Seymour Cray and the Technical Wizards behind the Supercomputer Your conspiracy theory requires coming up with someone more clever than Cray as the tech lead, who never talk about it, and nothing ever became known about it. Except for an odd slip by a civilian. [2] This time I chose a word my father would use.