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Motorcycles have about 29 times the deaths per mile compared to cars. If all you're worried about is saving space and gas they're a great option - my Honda crui

Motorcycles have about 29 times the deaths per mile compared to cars. If all you're worried about is saving space and gas they're a great option - my Honda cruiser gets about 80mpg. But it's incredibly dangerous. I think it's plausible that safety could improve with infrastructure changes and driver education, but I don't think it could ever compare to being strapped into a metal cage with airbags and crumple zones

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bluefirebrand 5y ago
Not to mention that in a substantial portion of the world, motorcycles aren't practical for most of the year. Snow, ice and cold aren't great for two-wheeled vehicles.
- maire 5y ago
  You should check out the Not Just Bikes Youtube channel. The channel is mostly on city planning that supports walking and biking (rather than motorcycles) but the Dutch bicycle in the snow because they have an infrastructure that supports it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&list=RDCMUC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A&index=6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&list=RDCMUC0intL... Of course they don't have mountains which is the issue where I live.
  - Steltek 5y ago
    But we ARE talking about motorcycles here. And sliding out on ice on a bicycle is wayyyy different than a motorcycle. Most people can muscle a bicycle into submission but a light motorcycle starts at 300lbs/130kg. Good luck holding that upright if you and the bike disagree on where the tires should be going.
- not_the_nsa 5y ago
  Australia here. When we're not on fire or under water (which is also where scooters perform rather badly), it often seems to be too hot to wear safety gear. Add the sense of entitlement of large 4WDs to complete non-enforcement of road rules protecting riders of both motor- and acoustic bikes by the Police, and you've got a deadly mix going.
  - Steltek 5y ago
    Yeah, I think the Giant Car problem is what will doom this system in the US. True scooters like these can use the bike lanes in most cities (ymmv) so they might have a chance but they'll be stuck behind regular bikes and e-bikes and so limited to those speeds.
  - harambae 5y ago
    > too hot to wear safety gear There is mesh synthetic safety gear that's quite good these days (I'd imagine it'll eventually disintegrate on a long slide, but will at least help with impact. Also road rash typically isn't what will actually kill you). It also comes in colors that will reflect the sun a little more than black, which is still the most popular motorcycle clothing color by sales. I used to ride a lot in Ocotillo Wells where it would hit 110F in full safety gear, so it is possible. Helps when you're going fast enough to get wind chill.
- throwaway2037 5y ago
  I saw many comments above included stories from Taiwan. If you are not aware, Taiwan has an incredible amount of rain, yet there are scooters everywhere. I never understand how scooters remain so popular!
  - temp8964 5y ago
    People wear rain clothes on scooters. This is very dangerous. Your vision is very bad in the rain and your control of the scooter is also bad. I did this when I got no other choices.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Yeah and if you need to tow a trailer they don't work either, but those are not very good arguments why we don't try to accommodate them in the situations where they do work very well, i.e. city driving in regions where it doesn't snow very much. The same applies to bicycles and ebikes.
  - bandrami 5y ago
    Bikes tow trailers all the time. Just not as big as the ones trucks tow.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    Motorcycles can tow trailers. Sidecars are also a thing. In the 1950s there was a motorcycle dealership in Portland that had a motorcycle carrier sidecar. If your bike broke down they would ride out on their bike, roll yours onto the side car and give you both a lift back to the shop. No trucks needed.
    - harambae 5y ago
      There's even 3rd wheel trailers (I personally only discovered this very recently) https://thirdwheeltrailers.com/ https://thirdwheeltrailers.com/
rd07 5y ago
Yes, motocycle is evidently more dangerous than car. But, some people don't have a choice. In some country, car is still a luxury. For example, in my country, a used car can cost at least 3 times a brand new motocycle.
- Existenceblinks 5y ago
  Import duty + Excise + VAT with some ridiculous calculation, 3,000 cc import to Thailand is about 328% (data from 2019, i think the formula is still the same today). It really feels stupid (despite of no choices) to buy 300% price of original price.
zapataband1 5y ago
they sound like a great option for major cities where there are already tons of speed limiting because of the population density.
- MCllorf 5y ago
  I think it's safe to use insurance rates as a proxy for the likelihood you'll get into a crash. Rates are almost invariably higher for every type of coverage if you live in a more densely populated area.
  - zapataband1 5y ago
    You're talking about fatalities though. There are 1000x more rear ends in the city but I have yet to see a car flipped over in the city like on the highway
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    Is that for third party only though? Perhaps also confounded by higher-prices of cars in cities vs rural areas when you do crash into something = higher costs.
    - MCllorf 5y ago
      From what I've seen, collision coverage tends to be used for cases where you made a mistake and need to get your own vehicle fixed. Generally all the coverage sections will get more expensive when you move to a more densely-populated area but the from the cases I've seen, collision coverage will tend to be significantly more expensive in Chicago than southern Illinois.
hutzlibu 5y ago
Motorcycles and bicycles are indeed more dangerous, but exactly because of cars. If more car owners would at least sometimes switch to the smaller option, it would make life easier and safer for 2 wheel drivers. This is not likely though, so I hope for ebikes and more cycle lanes and car free zones in cities, to make it more attractive.
BatteryMountain 5y ago
I drove for 6 years with 3 different bikes (125cc scooter + 125cc small bike + 600cc bike)... and as much as I love it, I gave it up. I have to fight the urge to buy a new one every few months. I've fallen & had accidents 4 times and I'm lucky to be alive to be honest. It helps to know the stats around the death rates and to watch a few accident aftermath scenes to cure yourself. I truly do want everyone to drive them for all the benefits they bring but I also truly don't want a single person to die like that, so I no longer recommend that other people buy them (not even a scooter for short distances).
MezzoDelCammin 5y ago
[citation needed]. Not because I doubt the number (it seems plausible), but because I'd like to see the data. IMO once You factor for speed and environment (how much time will any of those electric city scooters ever ride on highway and/or above maybe 50-60kph?), You'll be left with two causes of accidents - rider who loses control (exponentially less deadly with reduced speed) and scooter vs car crash on intersections / in lanes. In this case, much as those crumple zones work well for whoever is inside the metal box, they also add extra mass / energy to the body that's being deformed on the outside...
- yonaguska 5y ago
  Highways are actually some of the safest roadways for motorcycle riders, with the vast majority of motorcycle accidents happening at intersections. Scooters are not immune to this, and would in fact spend more time in these danger zones than motorcycles. I do believe that area also plays a large role in fatality rate as well as culture. Eliminating any alcohol consumption goes a long way in avoiding motorcycle accidents, but there's a huge cruiser culture that involves going to the bar as a ride destination. And localized driving culture also plays a big role. In many developing countries where more people are on bikes, speed limits tend to be lower to match road quality. As such, most motorcycles and scooters will be functionally equivalent, with most bikes being sold being less than 250cc. But also, all the traffic, including car traffic might be slower. Additionally, the increased prevalence of stick shift means less texting and driving. Whereas in the US, especially in big driving cities, you may have very aggressive driving culture. Like Chicago, where I actually felt safer on a full motorcycle than a bicycle and most definitely safer than on a scooter. In those places, being slow puts you at the mercy of the aggressive drivers coming from behind you. Classes I took there actually encouraged you to be a more aggressive rider, to ride slightly faster than traffic to find bubbles in the traffic and be certain that you weren't going to be rear ended by someone doing something stupid. Sorry I don't have any data, just around 100k miles of seat time over the course of about 5 or 6 years, most of it urban riding. Motorcycle's are very dangerous, and there are steps you can take to mitigate the danger, like choosing when and where to ride, but at the end of the day, you are always at the mercy of cars on the road, and drivers seem to be getting progressively worse as more people are on their phones.
dataexporter 5y ago
You are talking about the stats from an American perspective. Such a car-centric view. Not everyone lives in America. Hundreds of cities and countries have infrastructure suitable for two wheelers. Especially when you are within the city limits. Cities in India it is extremely common to ride two-wheelers and it is generally safer to ride scooters. Most delivery drivers use motorcycles - millions of them in fact.
gregors 5y ago
I hear a lot of how motorcycles are dangerous and they absolutely are. But 1/2 of wrecks are single vehicle wrecks and most of the other wrecks are cars turning in front of motorcycles or motorcycles getting rear-ended at lights. American streets are designed poorly, see stroads and all that. If we want motorcycle fatalities to go down, we need to strive for all fatalities to go down. Yes 5.5k riders died last year, but 42K car drivers died. Yet we're fine with that because "well per mile that isn't that bad" 42K isn't a good number and there needs to be greater discussion surrounding the poor driving conditions created by poor planning.

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bluefirebrand 5y ago

Not to mention that in a substantial portion of the world, motorcycles aren't practical for most of the year. Snow, ice and cold aren't great for two-wheeled vehicles.

maire 5y ago
You should check out the Not Just Bikes Youtube channel. The channel is mostly on city planning that supports walking and biking (rather than motorcycles) but the Dutch bicycle in the snow because they have an infrastructure that supports it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&list=RDCMUC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A&index=6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&list=RDCMUC0intL... Of course they don't have mountains which is the issue where I live.
- Steltek 5y ago
  But we ARE talking about motorcycles here. And sliding out on ice on a bicycle is wayyyy different than a motorcycle. Most people can muscle a bicycle into submission but a light motorcycle starts at 300lbs/130kg. Good luck holding that upright if you and the bike disagree on where the tires should be going.
not_the_nsa 5y ago
Australia here. When we're not on fire or under water (which is also where scooters perform rather badly), it often seems to be too hot to wear safety gear. Add the sense of entitlement of large 4WDs to complete non-enforcement of road rules protecting riders of both motor- and acoustic bikes by the Police, and you've got a deadly mix going.
- Steltek 5y ago
  Yeah, I think the Giant Car problem is what will doom this system in the US. True scooters like these can use the bike lanes in most cities (ymmv) so they might have a chance but they'll be stuck behind regular bikes and e-bikes and so limited to those speeds.
- harambae 5y ago
  > too hot to wear safety gear There is mesh synthetic safety gear that's quite good these days (I'd imagine it'll eventually disintegrate on a long slide, but will at least help with impact. Also road rash typically isn't what will actually kill you). It also comes in colors that will reflect the sun a little more than black, which is still the most popular motorcycle clothing color by sales. I used to ride a lot in Ocotillo Wells where it would hit 110F in full safety gear, so it is possible. Helps when you're going fast enough to get wind chill.
throwaway2037 5y ago
I saw many comments above included stories from Taiwan. If you are not aware, Taiwan has an incredible amount of rain, yet there are scooters everywhere. I never understand how scooters remain so popular!
- temp8964 5y ago
  People wear rain clothes on scooters. This is very dangerous. Your vision is very bad in the rain and your control of the scooter is also bad. I did this when I got no other choices.
adrianN 5y ago
Yeah and if you need to tow a trailer they don't work either, but those are not very good arguments why we don't try to accommodate them in the situations where they do work very well, i.e. city driving in regions where it doesn't snow very much. The same applies to bicycles and ebikes.
- bandrami 5y ago
  Bikes tow trailers all the time. Just not as big as the ones trucks tow.
- mulmen 5y ago
  Motorcycles can tow trailers. Sidecars are also a thing. In the 1950s there was a motorcycle dealership in Portland that had a motorcycle carrier sidecar. If your bike broke down they would ride out on their bike, roll yours onto the side car and give you both a lift back to the shop. No trucks needed.
  - harambae 5y ago
    There's even 3rd wheel trailers (I personally only discovered this very recently) https://thirdwheeltrailers.com/ https://thirdwheeltrailers.com/

rd07 5y ago

Yes, motocycle is evidently more dangerous than car. But, some people don't have a choice. In some country, car is still a luxury. For example, in my country, a used car can cost at least 3 times a brand new motocycle.

Existenceblinks 5y ago
Import duty + Excise + VAT with some ridiculous calculation, 3,000 cc import to Thailand is about 328% (data from 2019, i think the formula is still the same today). It really feels stupid (despite of no choices) to buy 300% price of original price.

zapataband1 5y ago

they sound like a great option for major cities where there are already tons of speed limiting because of the population density.

MCllorf 5y ago
I think it's safe to use insurance rates as a proxy for the likelihood you'll get into a crash. Rates are almost invariably higher for every type of coverage if you live in a more densely populated area.
- zapataband1 5y ago
  You're talking about fatalities though. There are 1000x more rear ends in the city but I have yet to see a car flipped over in the city like on the highway
- bigfudge 5y ago
  Is that for third party only though? Perhaps also confounded by higher-prices of cars in cities vs rural areas when you do crash into something = higher costs.
  - MCllorf 5y ago
    From what I've seen, collision coverage tends to be used for cases where you made a mistake and need to get your own vehicle fixed. Generally all the coverage sections will get more expensive when you move to a more densely-populated area but the from the cases I've seen, collision coverage will tend to be significantly more expensive in Chicago than southern Illinois.

hutzlibu 5y ago

Motorcycles and bicycles are indeed more dangerous, but exactly because of cars. If more car owners would at least sometimes switch to the smaller option, it would make life easier and safer for 2 wheel drivers. This is not likely though, so I hope for ebikes and more cycle lanes and car free zones in cities, to make it more attractive.

BatteryMountain 5y ago

I drove for 6 years with 3 different bikes (125cc scooter + 125cc small bike + 600cc bike)... and as much as I love it, I gave it up. I have to fight the urge to buy a new one every few months. I've fallen & had accidents 4 times and I'm lucky to be alive to be honest. It helps to know the stats around the death rates and to watch a few accident aftermath scenes to cure yourself. I truly do want everyone to drive them for all the benefits they bring but I also truly don't want a single person to die like that, so I no longer recommend that other people buy them (not even a scooter for short distances).

MezzoDelCammin 5y ago

[citation needed]. Not because I doubt the number (it seems plausible), but because I'd like to see the data. IMO once You factor for speed and environment (how much time will any of those electric city scooters ever ride on highway and/or above maybe 50-60kph?), You'll be left with two causes of accidents - rider who loses control (exponentially less deadly with reduced speed) and scooter vs car crash on intersections / in lanes. In this case, much as those crumple zones work well for whoever is inside the metal box, they also add extra mass / energy to the body that's being deformed on the outside...

yonaguska 5y ago
Highways are actually some of the safest roadways for motorcycle riders, with the vast majority of motorcycle accidents happening at intersections. Scooters are not immune to this, and would in fact spend more time in these danger zones than motorcycles. I do believe that area also plays a large role in fatality rate as well as culture. Eliminating any alcohol consumption goes a long way in avoiding motorcycle accidents, but there's a huge cruiser culture that involves going to the bar as a ride destination. And localized driving culture also plays a big role. In many developing countries where more people are on bikes, speed limits tend to be lower to match road quality. As such, most motorcycles and scooters will be functionally equivalent, with most bikes being sold being less than 250cc. But also, all the traffic, including car traffic might be slower. Additionally, the increased prevalence of stick shift means less texting and driving. Whereas in the US, especially in big driving cities, you may have very aggressive driving culture. Like Chicago, where I actually felt safer on a full motorcycle than a bicycle and most definitely safer than on a scooter. In those places, being slow puts you at the mercy of the aggressive drivers coming from behind you. Classes I took there actually encouraged you to be a more aggressive rider, to ride slightly faster than traffic to find bubbles in the traffic and be certain that you weren't going to be rear ended by someone doing something stupid. Sorry I don't have any data, just around 100k miles of seat time over the course of about 5 or 6 years, most of it urban riding. Motorcycle's are very dangerous, and there are steps you can take to mitigate the danger, like choosing when and where to ride, but at the end of the day, you are always at the mercy of cars on the road, and drivers seem to be getting progressively worse as more people are on their phones.

dataexporter 5y ago

You are talking about the stats from an American perspective. Such a car-centric view. Not everyone lives in America. Hundreds of cities and countries have infrastructure suitable for two wheelers. Especially when you are within the city limits. Cities in India it is extremely common to ride two-wheelers and it is generally safer to ride scooters. Most delivery drivers use motorcycles - millions of them in fact.

gregors 5y ago

I hear a lot of how motorcycles are dangerous and they absolutely are. But 1/2 of wrecks are single vehicle wrecks and most of the other wrecks are cars turning in front of motorcycles or motorcycles getting rear-ended at lights. American streets are designed poorly, see stroads and all that. If we want motorcycle fatalities to go down, we need to strive for all fatalities to go down. Yes 5.5k riders died last year, but 42K car drivers died. Yet we're fine with that because "well per mile that isn't that bad" 42K isn't a good number and there needs to be greater discussion surrounding the poor driving conditions created by poor planning.