4 ms·

Unfortunately this is not it. The game changer will be when they start closing off large parts of cities to cars and limiting them to small, slow and safe golf

Unfortunately this is not it. The game changer will be when they start closing off large parts of cities to cars and limiting them to small, slow and safe golf cart/scooter/bike type vehicles. Everything else will fall into place very quickly afterwards. We have the technology, we need the political will. These scooters are nice but few people will brave riding them in a busy American street, not to even mention a highway.

rootusrootus 5y ago
> the political will Which is another way of saying 'willing voters.' Who all own cars already, for the most part. And rarely vote to reduce their own quality of life even if there is a possibility that in the longer run it will be higher.
- schnevets 5y ago
  and are completely oblivious to the costs of their way of life (and certainly won't listen to a politician who mentions the existence of such cost)
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Or they believe the costs are worth it. Trying to convince people to support extraordinary lifestyle changes requires extraordinary evidence that the net result will be positive.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      If innovation can't happen until the ignorant are enlightened we're never going to see innovation.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Innovation is all around you. It's just not the type of innovation that requires elected government officials to participate (and in a way that will frustrate some of their supporters). You're likely reading this on a device that was invented while plenty of ignorant people were still not enlightened.
        munk-a 5y ago
        I completely agree and that's almost my entire point. Innovation that depends on the ignorant being enlightened is almost impossible to accomplish - innovation needs to work around ignorance and accomplish itself through smaller steps that provide benefits to everyone. I really wish this weren't the case as it gives immense momentum to doing things the wrong way - but it's something we need to cope with. (I admit I may have worded my comment a bit better with a "that" - 'If innovation can't happen until the ignorant are enlightened we're never going to see that innovation.')
      - elboru 5y ago
        Yeah, let’s impose our benevolent superior ideas on the ignorant majority. I’m sure no one has tried that before and it has never lead any country into dictatorship.
        wittycardio 5y ago
        Often the majority is very ignorant. You don't need to jump to dictatorships to change their mind, marketing and innovation have proved more than enough
    - flukus 5y ago
      > Or they believe the costs are worth it. The costs are more than likely paid by others, which is why they're oblivious. Far easier than convincing them would be to stop subsidizing them, sprawling car dependent suburbs are a giant money sink that the people living in them rarely pay for.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Well how did we convince people to stop throwing human waste out the window, pay for installing sewer pipes and using soap?
omgitsabird 5y ago
How will that ever happen when delivery, moving, construction, etc are essential parts of the economy for "large parts of cities"?
- wffurr 5y ago
  None of which requires unrestricted access for personal cars or motor vehicles.
- pjerem 5y ago
  You can totally ban individual cars while allowing delivery, moving, construction, emergencies, public transport … A lot of city centers in Europe have been closed to cars during the last decades but special trafic is still allowed. It just works and it’s better for everybody. And now I hope this will be extended outside of city centers.
  - omgitsabird 5y ago
    Sure, but how does this system work? Especially with newer services, like ride sharing, where people use personal vehicles to transport people within these areas?
    - oblio 5y ago
      It doesn't work, nobody ever thought of it. RIP Europe, you will be sorely missed. On a more serious note, ride sharing services are considered as taxis which are considered public transport and public transport is generally allowed at least on designated roads.
    - dghlsakjg 5y ago
      You could require them to register as commercial vehicles. You can enforce using physical barriers or punishing fines/use fees for people that don't enter the area with a fare. Taxis can only go in certain parts of airports, rideshares have designated pickup zones, it seems to work fine. Or you just say that one of the downsides of being a part time driver that isn't part of a regulated fleet is that you don't get to congest downtown areas. In Granada Spain I noticed that certain parts of the old city had physical barriers that could only be passed by a vehicle with the right NFC pass. Generally taxis, busses, and a few private cars that seemed to belong to people with property in the area. It made it very pleasant to walk around the old streets without having to suck down exhaust fumes of idling cars. As you noted, Uber is a newer service, plenty of people happily lived their lives before it existed.
Johnny555 5y ago
The USA already has a NEV standard (25mph top speed, some look like small cars, others more like golf carts). All it would take to make them viable is more streets with 25mph speed limits. This makes roads safer for bikes and scooters, but the NEV gives a car-like option for someone who can't (or won't) ride a bike. Even a NEV-plus standard that allows up to 35mph would be an improvement, that would already cover almost all of my commute.
- hristov 5y ago
  The NEV standard would be great if people followed speed limits. Unfortunately, the fact that it is 25 mph it does not mean people will drive anywhere close to that. But it is a good start.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    There's a pretty easy fix for that... speed cameras.
    - xmprt 5y ago
      Even easier fix for that which is much cheaper to enforce... narrower roads, raised crosswalks, separated bike lanes. Cars will naturally drive slower on those roads and they are more friendly to other modalities.
      - Johnny555 5y ago
        The argument against strict traffic calming is always "How will an emergency vehicle get through?" There are some solutions that can slow cars but still allow emergency vehicles through, but they aren't perfect, and still need sign off from the fire department. And that signoff can be hard to get, years ago, my neighborhood wanted to install speed humps to slow traffic -- the fire department vetoed it since the road was the main access from the neighhood firestation.
        5y ago
bduerst 5y ago
Why can't it be both? Easy-access technology can be a first step to changing political mindsets.
banana_giraffe 5y ago
Reminds me of cities where there are paths throughout the area for golf carts. Most of them are retirement villages and the like, but there are some notable "normal" cities like Peachtree City, Georgia that do this. I can't imagine any developed city having the collective willpower to retrofit these sorts of paths into their city, though.
jsnodlin 5y ago

rootusrootus 5y ago

> the political will Which is another way of saying 'willing voters.' Who all own cars already, for the most part. And rarely vote to reduce their own quality of life even if there is a possibility that in the longer run it will be higher.

schnevets 5y ago
and are completely oblivious to the costs of their way of life (and certainly won't listen to a politician who mentions the existence of such cost)
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Or they believe the costs are worth it. Trying to convince people to support extraordinary lifestyle changes requires extraordinary evidence that the net result will be positive.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    If innovation can't happen until the ignorant are enlightened we're never going to see innovation.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Innovation is all around you. It's just not the type of innovation that requires elected government officials to participate (and in a way that will frustrate some of their supporters). You're likely reading this on a device that was invented while plenty of ignorant people were still not enlightened.
      - munk-a 5y ago
        I completely agree and that's almost my entire point. Innovation that depends on the ignorant being enlightened is almost impossible to accomplish - innovation needs to work around ignorance and accomplish itself through smaller steps that provide benefits to everyone. I really wish this weren't the case as it gives immense momentum to doing things the wrong way - but it's something we need to cope with. (I admit I may have worded my comment a bit better with a "that" - 'If innovation can't happen until the ignorant are enlightened we're never going to see that innovation.')
    - elboru 5y ago
      Yeah, let’s impose our benevolent superior ideas on the ignorant majority. I’m sure no one has tried that before and it has never lead any country into dictatorship.
      - wittycardio 5y ago
        Often the majority is very ignorant. You don't need to jump to dictatorships to change their mind, marketing and innovation have proved more than enough
  - flukus 5y ago
    > Or they believe the costs are worth it. The costs are more than likely paid by others, which is why they're oblivious. Far easier than convincing them would be to stop subsidizing them, sprawling car dependent suburbs are a giant money sink that the people living in them rarely pay for.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Well how did we convince people to stop throwing human waste out the window, pay for installing sewer pipes and using soap?

omgitsabird 5y ago

How will that ever happen when delivery, moving, construction, etc are essential parts of the economy for "large parts of cities"?

wffurr 5y ago
None of which requires unrestricted access for personal cars or motor vehicles.
pjerem 5y ago
You can totally ban individual cars while allowing delivery, moving, construction, emergencies, public transport … A lot of city centers in Europe have been closed to cars during the last decades but special trafic is still allowed. It just works and it’s better for everybody. And now I hope this will be extended outside of city centers.
- omgitsabird 5y ago
  Sure, but how does this system work? Especially with newer services, like ride sharing, where people use personal vehicles to transport people within these areas?
  - oblio 5y ago
    It doesn't work, nobody ever thought of it. RIP Europe, you will be sorely missed. On a more serious note, ride sharing services are considered as taxis which are considered public transport and public transport is generally allowed at least on designated roads.
  - dghlsakjg 5y ago
    You could require them to register as commercial vehicles. You can enforce using physical barriers or punishing fines/use fees for people that don't enter the area with a fare. Taxis can only go in certain parts of airports, rideshares have designated pickup zones, it seems to work fine. Or you just say that one of the downsides of being a part time driver that isn't part of a regulated fleet is that you don't get to congest downtown areas. In Granada Spain I noticed that certain parts of the old city had physical barriers that could only be passed by a vehicle with the right NFC pass. Generally taxis, busses, and a few private cars that seemed to belong to people with property in the area. It made it very pleasant to walk around the old streets without having to suck down exhaust fumes of idling cars. As you noted, Uber is a newer service, plenty of people happily lived their lives before it existed.

Johnny555 5y ago

The USA already has a NEV standard (25mph top speed, some look like small cars, others more like golf carts). All it would take to make them viable is more streets with 25mph speed limits. This makes roads safer for bikes and scooters, but the NEV gives a car-like option for someone who can't (or won't) ride a bike. Even a NEV-plus standard that allows up to 35mph would be an improvement, that would already cover almost all of my commute.

hristov 5y ago
The NEV standard would be great if people followed speed limits. Unfortunately, the fact that it is 25 mph it does not mean people will drive anywhere close to that. But it is a good start.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  There's a pretty easy fix for that... speed cameras.
  - xmprt 5y ago
    Even easier fix for that which is much cheaper to enforce... narrower roads, raised crosswalks, separated bike lanes. Cars will naturally drive slower on those roads and they are more friendly to other modalities.
    - Johnny555 5y ago
      The argument against strict traffic calming is always "How will an emergency vehicle get through?" There are some solutions that can slow cars but still allow emergency vehicles through, but they aren't perfect, and still need sign off from the fire department. And that signoff can be hard to get, years ago, my neighborhood wanted to install speed humps to slow traffic -- the fire department vetoed it since the road was the main access from the neighhood firestation.
      - 5y ago

bduerst 5y ago

Why can't it be both? Easy-access technology can be a first step to changing political mindsets.

banana_giraffe 5y ago

Reminds me of cities where there are paths throughout the area for golf carts. Most of them are retirement villages and the like, but there are some notable "normal" cities like Peachtree City, Georgia that do this. I can't imagine any developed city having the collective willpower to retrofit these sorts of paths into their city, though.

jsnodlin 5y ago