10 ms·

When I was in Taiwan we saw Gogoro scooters in the wild. The battery is swapped at a kiosk in a couple of minutes. Riders pay a subscription for the scooter a

• asdff 5y ago
  We have subscription escooters which seem tempting to me, but the costs never pencil out. They end up being as much as the scooter within a years time or so, plus you are on the hook if some major damage or theft happens. Whats the point of that then? Might as well look for someone who will let you finance an ebike and put it on your renters or homeowners insurance for protection at that rate.
  • renewiltord 5y ago
    Access to credit is not as easy in India. This is just a straightforward capex to opex transformation that people can intuitively grasp. Combine that with no minimum commitment and it's transparent to them what expenses are, what income is, and what net income is. Indian users are very price-sensitive and there are extensive discussion networks running the numbers on these. They won't use these services unless it makes financial sense.
  • thebean11 5y ago
    - Quick battery swapping - No maintenance or upgrade cost - Low upfront cost - Low commitment
    • asdff 5y ago
      Still cheaper to own. Maintenance with ebikes is not going to be very much. Throw lube on the chain every once in a while and have the bike shop do tires and brakes once every two years. Honestly you could buy a brand new $1200 ebike a year for the prices the services around me ask for their most basic plans which have mileage limits, and require a deposit anyhow. You can also turn around and sell your new ebike anytime, not much lock in or commitment there whereas I'm putting my blind faith in the fact that this particular subscription service will be easy to cancel (history says otherwise).
      • thebean11 5y ago
        Where is "around you"? The economics in India might be a lot different (ie relatively more expensive scooters, cheaper labor)
        • ipaddr 5y ago
          You can buy an ebike for 1,000 or less. You can pay 99/month for typical ebike monthly rental.
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        • asdff 5y ago
          Socal, we have zoomo which is $20/wk.
      • ceeplusplus 5y ago
        You're not getting a high quality ebike for $1200. I had a $600 e-scooter (Segway ES4) and by the time I hit 500+ miles on it the screws were falling off, the external battery connection was corroding, and the bottom floorboard light connection had broken. I just checked and the Ninebot Max is $949 on Segway's website and that's got a smaller battery than most ebikes. And I'd be willing to be that that scooter would also break down just like mine.
      • bduerst 5y ago
        >Still cheaper to own. Bay Wheels is $159/year and about $2.00 a ride, meaning you would need to ride 520 times that year before it became cheaper to own. Also for regular bikes it's free each ride. That's ignoring that decent e-bikes are more expensive than $1200, the stress of having to lug around and securely park your property, the depreciation of the batteries, as well as any insurance & deductible costs you'll encounter for when (not if) it gets stolen. It's hands down better to be able to hop-on and -off wherever you want with an ebike than to deal with owning one in SF.
  • phreeza 5y ago
    Wait, you are on the hook for theft?? Just while you are logged in, or for what period of time?
    • asdff 5y ago
      You get billed a fee apparently: https://old.reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/kon8hr/i_just_had_my_bike_stolen_in_less_than_2_minutes/ https://old.reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/kon8hr/i_just_had_...
  • codazoda 5y ago
    My wife and I just rode Lime scooters in San Francisco and I was shocked by the cost. We rode about 4 miles in 45 minutes. When we got off, we were charged $60 (about $30 each). We could have taken Uber or Lyft for less. They have 1-hour and 1-day options, but I was told by CS (after) that the 1-hour pass only includes 30-minutes of actual riding. Uhg. I might buy one, because they are so fun, but I probably won’t rent one again. I’m talking stand on scooters vs the sit on motorcycle type ones.
    • thatfrenchguy 5y ago
      I think the point of those things, at least for the ebikes, is to rip off the tourists to compensate for the locals who have a subscription?
      • a9h74j 5y ago
        Bright side for tourists: No windows to break in the rental.
    • ceeplusplus 5y ago
      I think these are intended more for transportation than riding around (unlike the BayWheels type stuff). I used to commute to work on my own scooter and it only takes 15 minutes or less to ride 4 miles on the road. My commute in the morning was just under 3 miles and downhill so I usually managed in 8 minutes.
    • bduerst 5y ago
      Lime and other scooters in SF used to have much less expensive subscription options, but they've all recently dropped them for much more expensive ones. Bay Wheels bike annual subscription is worth it but only if you use them regularly (like commuting/weekends).
    • woah 5y ago
      Unfortunately, the SF municipal government in all its wisdom has granted monopolies to certain e-scooter companies and capped the allowed number of scooters (the scooters were traumatizing rich aging hippies with their techie-ness). Prices are way higher here than most cities.
  • mkehrt 5y ago
    The value subscriptions (bikes/ebikes for me in SF) is in not having to worry about it. I can bike to anywhere in the city and generally leave the bike there and walk or bus. Or I can do the reverse. I'm also not on the hook for maintenance. It's a very different thing than owning. Edit: I want to be clear that this is about the economics and ease of owning vs renting, not the particular prices. Lyft bikes have memberships+rental fees or just rental fees, and they can be pretty expensive, but so can buying an ebike.
    • ipaddr 5y ago
      You can take it anywhere and just leave it? Middle of the road? Under a bridge? Random backyard? That sounds useful but how often do you not need transportation back from where you came? If you leave the bike how easy is it to run into another bike someone randonly left?
      • mkehrt 5y ago
        I can leave an ebike on a random sidewalk, as long as it is not blocking the way, for a $2 fee, or at a dock, of which there are many, for free. How often do I do this? Probably once a week. Bike out to the beach, walk or bus back. Bike to the grocery store, lyft back. Go on a walk after work, not have to worry about getting home. How easy is it too find one? Pretty easy. There are docks everywhere, and an app that shows me where bikes are left.
        • ipaddr 5y ago
          Wouldn't that make it super easy to steal an ebike? No your problem but I wonder if putting these in a truck would be an effective business model
          • mkehrt 5y ago
            They actually do this to rebalance them, so they probably pick up random bikes too.
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  • fragmede 5y ago
    The point of that is that renting confers specific benefits that make it worthwhile despite the downsides. First off, no need to charge. Not the worst thing but there's nothing worse than running out of battery because you forgot to charge it. Additionally, no maintenance - the company employs mechanics that are better positioned to fix the scooters. Finally, no need to have the scooter with you - just use it whenever you want, in one direction, and then not have to lug a scooter with you for the rest of the day. Or, if you didn't ride it in, you can't use it for the rest of the day. If it's raining in the morning but clear in the evening, you don't have the scooter to ride home unless you rode it in for your morning commute. Now, you may not find that list enough to offset the downsides compared to buying your own, but judging from their seeming success, I'm not the only person that's done the math and intentionally chooses renting a scooter as-needed.
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  • KerrickStaley 5y ago
    Gogoro is a completely different model than Lime/Bird/Spin/etc. With Gogoro you subscribe to the battery swap service and own the scooter. Also, it's a sit-down scooter (more akin to a motorcycle) that can go 90 km/h, not a stand-up kick scooter.
• crate_barre 5y ago
  You almost need a scooter in these large third world mega cities. The streets are narrow as hell, they can’t really handle cars. On the flip side. Cars are stuck in traffic all day and rarely get to cruising speeds without making a left turn into another traffic jam. Scooters let you move around in that clusterfuck and no car is moving fast enough to kill you. Good luck staying safe in scooter in America though.
  • tomcam 5y ago
    > large third world mega cities. But enough about Los Angeles
  • Hypocritelefty 5y ago
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• vondur 5y ago
  In that case, it would be awesome to have some sort of standard battery for e-bikes, scooters, etc. Then you can just stop by some battery switching place swap one out on demand.
  • noahtallen 5y ago
    The other amazing benefit for this plan is that batteries are expected to fail and loose capacity after a few years. So being able to easily swap the most vulnerable component is awesome for long-term repairability!
  • gibolt 5y ago
    Gogoro has become the standard. Yamaha, Aeon, PGO, and likely others are already using their swap stations. Kymco has their own design and partnerships, but are way behind now on reach and marketshare.
• ankraft 5y ago
  We have several escooter services in The Netherlands (GO Sharing, Check, felyx, etc.) which are operating in the larger city's. It’s all subscription based and not that expensive comparing to owning a scooter with these current gas prices. The batteries are swapped at location and transported to and from the nearest chargestation. You have to take a photo when entering and leaving the scooter through the app. An investigation will be started by the issuer when a scooter got damaged. The last driver will not be responsible if it can’t be proved that the driver did the damage.
• baybal2 5y ago
  The engineering company I work briefly passed over few proposals from South Asian companies deploying them. We worked on electric bikes, but decided to pass on a real road going scooter as we have near no vehicle experience besides individual electronic components. Both leading battery swap standards in India are from Taiwan. One is GoGoRo as you said, and another is Ionex. Ionex based scooters usually have more in the roadgoing department, and GoGoRo more in internet/app features. GoGoRo is founded by a Taiwanese guy who worked for a famous company in America, thus he is using his fame to get big money from financial funds. Manufacturing is mostly OEM. Ionex is made by an established player — Kymco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDNKQ18-QYY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDNKQ18-QYY,) and has more firm standing in the industry. They have their own parts, and share service centres with their petrol scooters. The later is a very big thing in India, and South Asia in general. The biggest impediment for both turned out to be India road. Taiwanese scooters with tiny wheels don't fare well anywhere outside of big cities. Rural Indians really prefer classic motorcycles — cheap, repairable, no exotic parts. The "app" things doesn't sell at all either. The only useful function for many on smart scooters is a theft alarm + GPS.
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• blamazon 5y ago
  In this 2 minute video demonstrating a Gogoro swap the rider goes from opening their seat to having a fresh battery and ready to ride in about 50 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34k0nrrDQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34k0nrrDQA
  • omk 5y ago
    That looks like such a finished user experience. Just noticed the Gogoro swap logo in the video. Looks very similar to the Arduino logo. Only difference being the +/- positions are swapped.
    • Tuna-Fish 5y ago
      Exactly. I expected people fumbling around with smartphone apps, instead the process is extraordinarily easy and simple with no extraneous steps.
    • Cthulhu_ 5y ago
      I mean it's exactly what I would expect from something with minimal friction. The only improvements I can think of is to make the wait time slower; plugging one battery in should immediately unlock another. The other improvement depends on battery technology though.
      • asdf333 5y ago
        i bet it needs to do some checks to verify someone didn’t plug in a fake battery, the user has a valid subscription etc
      • KerrickStaley 5y ago
        The biggest point of friction is finding the swap station. Some swap stations are at ground level and easily visible from the street (e.g. at gas stations or convenience stores). But many are in parking garages and it's never clear what level the swap station is on or where in the facility it's located. I think the parking garage management gets to choose where to locate these stations, and typically they make it maximally convenient for people who are parking their scooters in the garage, without any consideration for people who are just stopping by. The app does give you a marker on a map and a photo of the the station, but it's often not enough.
• MCllorf 5y ago
  Motorcycles have about 29 times the deaths per mile compared to cars. If all you're worried about is saving space and gas they're a great option - my Honda cruiser gets about 80mpg. But it's incredibly dangerous. I think it's plausible that safety could improve with infrastructure changes and driver education, but I don't think it could ever compare to being strapped into a metal cage with airbags and crumple zones
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  • bluefirebrand 5y ago
    Not to mention that in a substantial portion of the world, motorcycles aren't practical for most of the year. Snow, ice and cold aren't great for two-wheeled vehicles.
    • maire 5y ago
      You should check out the Not Just Bikes Youtube channel. The channel is mostly on city planning that supports walking and biking (rather than motorcycles) but the Dutch bicycle in the snow because they have an infrastructure that supports it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&list=RDCMUC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A&index=6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&list=RDCMUC0intL... Of course they don't have mountains which is the issue where I live.
      • Steltek 5y ago
        But we ARE talking about motorcycles here. And sliding out on ice on a bicycle is wayyyy different than a motorcycle. Most people can muscle a bicycle into submission but a light motorcycle starts at 300lbs/130kg. Good luck holding that upright if you and the bike disagree on where the tires should be going.
    • not_the_nsa 5y ago
• bschwindHN 5y ago
  I rode on Gogoro scooters in Ishigaki, it was one of my most memorable trips! The island is a perfect environment for it: warm, nicely paved roads going through beautiful nature, can't get too far away from anything because it's an island, and battery swap stations placed strategically around so you don't feel uneasy about running out of charge. Those things have some good acceleration and are a blast to drive.
• rmbyrro 5y ago
  Motorcycles are extremely dangerous. Research about accidents and (lack of) safety where they're popular: Índia, Brazil, etc. You don't wanna go to funerals after this comes to your city, trust me. One doctor working on organ transplant told me once that almost 90% of donors in one Brazilian big city were riders of urban motorcycles.
  • Existenceblinks 5y ago
    It also depends on what area they ride. It's pretty safe in my city, we ride under 50km/h in-city, and I never ride above 70km/h outside city. 20 years, zero crashes. However, some city is crazy, 70km/h is norm around city center. Not including driving fast sounds cool? (I think it's instead, lame, nothing else to show off)
  • maven29 5y ago
    Correlation isn't necessarily causation. The majority of organ donors in the US are probably car drivers, for example. They also breathe oxygen, which can be fatal in the long term.
    • pugz 5y ago
      You'd be surprised. Motorcyclists make up a substantial fraction of all organ donors in the USA. Fatal crashes for motorcyclists are usually the result of traumatic brain injury while leaving the rest of the body intact -- the ideal scenario for organ donation. Fatal crashes for car drivers and passengers usually invokes significant damage to the whole body. See https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/661256 https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/661256
      • TapWaterBandit 5y ago
        Sure, but motorcyclist injuries where the rider isn't wearing a helmet are like car injuries where the passengers aren't wearing seatbelts. That being said I was astounded when I was in the Southern US the number of people I saw riding their motorbikes without helmets. Must feel amazing but I would never ever risk that in a million years. You don't even need to fall far or fast for a head blow to scramble you.