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The sentiment is justified, but the position is untenable. With every passing day, Greek debt compounds massively, and the hole gets bigger. Meanwhile, the unce

The sentiment is justified, but the position is untenable. With every passing day, Greek debt compounds massively, and the hole gets bigger. Meanwhile, the uncertainty in the markets causes further volatility and pain for all concerned, and you risk the setting in of total panic. You end up with the worst of both worlds: all the market pain of a Greek default, without the default itself...but with the default still quite likely. The Greek economy is dysfunctional to its core (even a passing skim-through of Michael Lewis's new book will give you a sense for just how dysfunctional it is). But that isn't the root of the problem. The root of the problem is that Greece was brought into the Euro monetary collective in the first place, and given the credit ratings and borrowing rates of a country like Germany. Banks had a large part in helping put lipstick on the Greek pig, covering up its systemic flaws and getting it ready for EU primetime. So imagine that Greek dysfunction was like a caged and abused pitbull, and Greece's EU inclusion was like walking into that cage waving a bloody hunk of meat in either arm. Who do you blame when you lose a few limbs: the pitbull, or yourself?

IdeaHamster 15y ago
There's an interesting extension of this line of thought. My sister-in-law works in Istanbul for a Greek company. She says that most of the actual profit-generating work done for this company is done in Romania or Turkey. The Greek offices, from what she describes, are more or less completely dysfunctional. Now, take that insight of conditions on the ground along with a chart of the growth of the Greek vs Turkish economies over the last decade, and then ask yourself: why is Greece a full EU member and included in the Eurozone, while Turkey's membership negotiations have completely stalled (and will probably conclude with Turkey not joining the EU)? Can you imagine a world where Greece is allowed to leave the Euro, massively devalue its debt (and take the decade or more of restructuring/rebuilding its economy that would come with that), and Turkey with its strong manufacturing sector and youthful, growing middle class is brought in in Greece's place? The EU and the Euro would be in a far stronger position...but it will never happen. Unfortunately, European cultural prejudices are still to ever-present and will result in Greece continuing to be dragged along while Turkey gets shunned.
- tftfmacedo 15y ago
  Regarding Turkey negotiations, I guess you know why. Human rights issues ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey ), Cyprus, death penalty.
  - abollaert 15y ago
    The cynic in me sometimes wonders if this argument is used as a red herring, and that there are other issues that need sorting out (involving money and control).
    - Atropos 15y ago
      Of course there are control issues as well, turkey has 73 million population and so would instantly be the 2nd largest voting bloc, very likely to become the biggest due to demographics in the future. It would make sense to have a much stricter standard for accepting large than tiny countries as new members.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- jfruh 15y ago
  Human rights are a factor, plus there's the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country, though many in the EU won't admit that. But even that could probably be overlooked if not for the fact that Turkey is a huge country. With a population of 73 million people (and a growing population, whereas many European states are stagnant in this regard), Turkey would immediately become the second-largest EU state, which means more members of the EU parliament than France or the UK and more voting power in those institutions where countries vote by weighted population. If Turkey were a Muslim country with a European toehold and a history of dodgy human rights abuses but a general trendline towards democracy and it had a population of about 10 million, the EU would be falling all over itself to admit it and show how enlightened it was.
  - 15y ago
samstave 15y ago
It was mentioned today that the Greek government employs TWENTY PERCENT of the population - and there was a 100-year old constitutional law that prevented the effective firing of anyone working in the government. This is institutionalized graft and is surely a main contributing factor in the corruption.
- wnight 15y ago
  Meh. Our governments (USA, Canada, EU) waste more, they just give it to lobbyists. At least this is a bottom-up instead of our top-down theft. Given that the lower income you have the more of your income you spend, giving stimulus packages exclusively to the poorest members of society and letting it trickle up seems the only reasonable way to do it.

IdeaHamster 15y ago

There's an interesting extension of this line of thought. My sister-in-law works in Istanbul for a Greek company. She says that most of the actual profit-generating work done for this company is done in Romania or Turkey. The Greek offices, from what she describes, are more or less completely dysfunctional. Now, take that insight of conditions on the ground along with a chart of the growth of the Greek vs Turkish economies over the last decade, and then ask yourself: why is Greece a full EU member and included in the Eurozone, while Turkey's membership negotiations have completely stalled (and will probably conclude with Turkey not joining the EU)? Can you imagine a world where Greece is allowed to leave the Euro, massively devalue its debt (and take the decade or more of restructuring/rebuilding its economy that would come with that), and Turkey with its strong manufacturing sector and youthful, growing middle class is brought in in Greece's place? The EU and the Euro would be in a far stronger position...but it will never happen. Unfortunately, European cultural prejudices are still to ever-present and will result in Greece continuing to be dragged along while Turkey gets shunned.

tftfmacedo 15y ago
Regarding Turkey negotiations, I guess you know why. Human rights issues ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey ), Cyprus, death penalty.
- abollaert 15y ago
  The cynic in me sometimes wonders if this argument is used as a red herring, and that there are other issues that need sorting out (involving money and control).
  - Atropos 15y ago
    Of course there are control issues as well, turkey has 73 million population and so would instantly be the 2nd largest voting bloc, very likely to become the biggest due to demographics in the future. It would make sense to have a much stricter standard for accepting large than tiny countries as new members.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
jfruh 15y ago
Human rights are a factor, plus there's the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country, though many in the EU won't admit that. But even that could probably be overlooked if not for the fact that Turkey is a huge country. With a population of 73 million people (and a growing population, whereas many European states are stagnant in this regard), Turkey would immediately become the second-largest EU state, which means more members of the EU parliament than France or the UK and more voting power in those institutions where countries vote by weighted population. If Turkey were a Muslim country with a European toehold and a history of dodgy human rights abuses but a general trendline towards democracy and it had a population of about 10 million, the EU would be falling all over itself to admit it and show how enlightened it was.
- 15y ago

samstave 15y ago

It was mentioned today that the Greek government employs TWENTY PERCENT of the population - and there was a 100-year old constitutional law that prevented the effective firing of anyone working in the government. This is institutionalized graft and is surely a main contributing factor in the corruption.

wnight 15y ago
Meh. Our governments (USA, Canada, EU) waste more, they just give it to lobbyists. At least this is a bottom-up instead of our top-down theft. Given that the lower income you have the more of your income you spend, giving stimulus packages exclusively to the poorest members of society and letting it trickle up seems the only reasonable way to do it.