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> an attack could overtake Moscow No it can't. Ukraine doesn't and can't have nukes. Russia has thousands of nukes. This doesn't even begin to make sense. Nob

by csee 5y ago

> an attack could overtake Moscow No it can't. Ukraine doesn't and can't have nukes. Russia has thousands of nukes. This doesn't even begin to make sense. Nobody can invade a nuclear power, let alone one with as many nukes as Russia. > From Moscow's perspective Ukraine could have a Nazi party take over at some point in the future. This is their propaganda. It's that logical fallacy; anything could happen, therefore this. Far-right gets very little support in Ukrainian elections, and neo-nazism is a bigger problem in Russia, Poland and Hungary than in Ukraine. Maybe Russia should be scared of Hungary; fair enough. But Ukraine? Azov is a large problem that needs to be dealt with, but it has nothing to do with neo-Nazis inside Ukrainian politics or leadership or broader society. If they wanted Ukraine to deal with Azov, they would stop threatening Ukraine, and then Ukraine wouldn't have the need for Azov. If you create an intense need for defence, then of course Azov isn't going to be dealt with. Azov is purely the fault of Russia.

gitfan86 5y ago
If you google "100 year history of Europe" you will see that older people like Putin are very aware of how drastically borders and governments have changed, even including countries that have nuclear weapons. To say that no one is going to invade Russia today is accurate, but from the Russian perspective the future of Russia is far from secure, they feel like they have to fight to preserve Russia.
- csee 5y ago
  > they feel like they have to fight to preserve Russia. I get that's part of what the propaganda is saying, and therefore some part of the population will believe it strongly. I am just saying it is not believable.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Certainly, they have to fight to preserve rule by Putin, which is all that is under threat. Failing to invade might have made him look weak. Pulling out would make him look weak. The moment he starts to seem weak, he's out, and shortly dead.
- bigfudge 5y ago
  Which county holding nuclear weapons has had its borders changed?
  - gitfan86 5y ago
    USSR, England
    - bigfudge 5y ago
      USSR's borders were not changed by external powers. And England? Do you mean the end of Empire? I'm not sure on the dates but it mostly predates nuclear deterrence.
      - gitfan86 5y ago
        If you are not sure you can google "European border changes over the past 100 years" and also Google "Dates that countries became nuclear" As far as the USSR collapse having nothing to do with external powers, that is an interesting take, I thought the Cold War was a big part of it, but maybe not?
        pantalaimon 5y ago
        The USSR did not collapse because of an invasion and geography would not have prevented it.
unionpivo 5y ago
People focus too much on Azov. They (Azov battalion ) are 1000 - 1500 (depending on source) people , and apparently only 10% - 20% of them are self proclaimed Nazis. Even if all of them are, It would surprise me if this was even the biggest Ukraian Nazi group. Most Westerner nations have more, hell In US you would be hard pressed to find a state that has less of them. Not trying to excuse them. Any white supremacist and/or nazi has no place in modern society. Just trying to put things in perspective. If Azov is all the nazis that Ukraine has, they are better than most western countries.
- justsomehnguy 5y ago
  > People focus too much on Azov. Please enlighten me, what other European country not only gave the arms to a Neo-Nazi gang (making it a government supported armed gang), absolved them of from any persecution from their misdeeds (including torture of civilians, as documented by OHCHR) AND incorporated it as a full featured unit in it's own army? Complete with a wolfsangel, black sun and reichsadler on the coat of arms, you know, a long standing historical symbols of Ukraine along with vyshyvanka ? Can you imagine something happening in a present day Germany? Poland? Latvi... well, in Latvia it could happen just fine, sure thing. The problem is not in Azov, the problem is what there is too many nazi (real nazi, adoring AH and German nazi, not just 'extremely nationalistic' ones) everywhere in Ukraine, including government AND army. If the layer of shit in the cake is only 2% it is still a cake with a shit layer. > If Azov is all the nazis that Ukraine has, they are better than most western countries. No, Azov isn't 'all the nazis' sadly. In the first week of war there was enough UPA flags in the videos to tell that.
  - csee 5y ago
    Germany and Poland aren't under existential threat from Russia. If your neighbor wants to invade you and has 3x the population, you can't pick and choose who you're going to let defend your country. Therefore the blame for tolerance of Azov is purely on Russian aggression. Look at Mariupol right now. The only reason it's still standing is because of Azov. This shows that the tolerance of Azov was unfortunately necessary in order to stop Russian aggression. If you are upset by Azov, blame Russia.

by csee 5y ago

gitfan86 5y ago

If you google "100 year history of Europe" you will see that older people like Putin are very aware of how drastically borders and governments have changed, even including countries that have nuclear weapons. To say that no one is going to invade Russia today is accurate, but from the Russian perspective the future of Russia is far from secure, they feel like they have to fight to preserve Russia.

csee 5y ago
> they feel like they have to fight to preserve Russia. I get that's part of what the propaganda is saying, and therefore some part of the population will believe it strongly. I am just saying it is not believable.
ncmncm 5y ago
Certainly, they have to fight to preserve rule by Putin, which is all that is under threat. Failing to invade might have made him look weak. Pulling out would make him look weak. The moment he starts to seem weak, he's out, and shortly dead.
bigfudge 5y ago
Which county holding nuclear weapons has had its borders changed?
- gitfan86 5y ago
  USSR, England
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    USSR's borders were not changed by external powers. And England? Do you mean the end of Empire? I'm not sure on the dates but it mostly predates nuclear deterrence.
    - gitfan86 5y ago
      If you are not sure you can google "European border changes over the past 100 years" and also Google "Dates that countries became nuclear" As far as the USSR collapse having nothing to do with external powers, that is an interesting take, I thought the Cold War was a big part of it, but maybe not?
      - pantalaimon 5y ago
        The USSR did not collapse because of an invasion and geography would not have prevented it.

unionpivo 5y ago

People focus too much on Azov. They (Azov battalion ) are 1000 - 1500 (depending on source) people , and apparently only 10% - 20% of them are self proclaimed Nazis. Even if all of them are, It would surprise me if this was even the biggest Ukraian Nazi group. Most Westerner nations have more, hell In US you would be hard pressed to find a state that has less of them. Not trying to excuse them. Any white supremacist and/or nazi has no place in modern society. Just trying to put things in perspective. If Azov is all the nazis that Ukraine has, they are better than most western countries.

justsomehnguy 5y ago
> People focus too much on Azov. Please enlighten me, what other European country not only gave the arms to a Neo-Nazi gang (making it a government supported armed gang), absolved them of from any persecution from their misdeeds (including torture of civilians, as documented by OHCHR) AND incorporated it as a full featured unit in it's own army? Complete with a wolfsangel, black sun and reichsadler on the coat of arms, you know, a long standing historical symbols of Ukraine along with vyshyvanka ? Can you imagine something happening in a present day Germany? Poland? Latvi... well, in Latvia it could happen just fine, sure thing. The problem is not in Azov, the problem is what there is too many nazi (real nazi, adoring AH and German nazi, not just 'extremely nationalistic' ones) everywhere in Ukraine, including government AND army. If the layer of shit in the cake is only 2% it is still a cake with a shit layer. > If Azov is all the nazis that Ukraine has, they are better than most western countries. No, Azov isn't 'all the nazis' sadly. In the first week of war there was enough UPA flags in the videos to tell that.
- csee 5y ago
  Germany and Poland aren't under existential threat from Russia. If your neighbor wants to invade you and has 3x the population, you can't pick and choose who you're going to let defend your country. Therefore the blame for tolerance of Azov is purely on Russian aggression. Look at Mariupol right now. The only reason it's still standing is because of Azov. This shows that the tolerance of Azov was unfortunately necessary in order to stop Russian aggression. If you are upset by Azov, blame Russia.