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> The 2014 revolution (not coup) followed by the recent non-rigged (unlike in Russia) democratic election I'm sorry, but I know few Ukrainians, certainly not e

by kkfx 5y ago

> The 2014 revolution (not coup) followed by the recent non-rigged (unlike in Russia) democratic election I'm sorry, but I know few Ukrainians, certainly not enough to compute statistics but enough to have some local insights, 2014 "revolution" was a coup, pushed by NATO and you can find few infos in our press btw [1], interesting the SOLE "democratic" in the sense that NO ONE in the world, USA included, state otherwise was the original referendum to separate DPR and LPR from Ukraine witch al the west say "the vote is invalid because Ukraine constitution do not support secession" but NO ONE say was rigged and 90+% votes for being a new Republic. > Source? I am aware of one warcrime most likely committed by Ukraine-aligned troops (potentially Azov) in the Donbas that were pointed out by Human Rights Watch. Just read about the aforementioned coup: did you think some Russians decide a day in 2014 to indict a referendum just to do something in the afternoon? Of course western resources are scarce, but something is easy to find https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-003694_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-00369... https://khpg.org/en/1540419843 https://khpg.org/en/1540419843 https://www.ofpra.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/atoms/files/1811_ukr_violences_groupes_ultranationalistes_0.pdf https://www.ofpra.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/atoms/files/18... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27173857 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27173857 https://www.news18.com/news/world/azov-battalion-accused-of-committing-inhuman-crimes-against-ukrainians-theyre-supposed-to-protect-4893575.html https://www.news18.com/news/world/azov-battalion-accused-of-... https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defending-mariupol/a-61151151 https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defendin... > That's false. They didn't ban all other parties. They banned 11 minority parties So "minor" that they represent around the totality of non-nazi parties... Curiously mostly on the left (you might not know but putin in Russia is considered from the right, the left oppose it, far more than some local nazis depicted as heroes in the west like Navalny... > You mean forced to spread government information? Surely government call that information, others call that narrative... Do remember that ALL dictators do not say they are dictators... > The head of Wagner is an actual Nazi, with SS tattoos on his neck. No doubt, and I'm pretty sure it's colleagues from Blackwater have similar tattoos... > No. Biden et al are not ultranationalist despots who murder their political opponents, rig elections, ban free speech, and invade democracies. Surely not, they are just criminals against humanity who push for various war crimes (do you remember Biden position about Belgrade bombing? About Iraq war, based on officially recognized lies?) and others crimes... Actually they have indirectly murdered probably far more people than putin. On banning free speech... Did you see our media? With some PRIVATE COMPANIES that ban peoples who say "non aligned" statements including for instance a facebook ban to the British Medical Journal "for covid misinformation"? The direct ban to Russian's media "they are source of fake news" etc? That's have a name: censorship. In free countries even media who push fake news have the right to do so. In the west apparently the actual censorship is not much different than the Chinese one and do not only happen at State level but also at private companies levels. On invasions... Iraq? Afganistan? FORMALLY invaded laying to our people? Libya? Syria? Somalia? Just to name few recent, but you can go in the recent past like Guatemala coup led by Eduard Bernays propaganda campain for the United Fruit co and the USA army, or the Chilean coup to evict Allende placing a recognized criminal dictator (Pinochet)? Do you want to keep going in the recent history? Any country have a bloody story, that's nothing new: Russia itself have crushed countless of small States during their history, but if we summarize the history the most violent talk in English, Belgian, Dutch, Spain follow, Portugal and Spain follow, Russia and China follow. But just see the recent USA politics: most say that Trump and Biden are completely different governments, now try to study their acts, they have done the same things. Of course, the public face is FAR different, the narrative is far different but the substance? [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2014/04/16/why-cia-director-brennan-visited-kiev-in-ukraine-the-covert-war-has-begun/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2014/04/16/why-cia-... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia... https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... https://multipolarista.com/2022/03/18/cia-trained-ukrainians-2014/ https://multipolarista.com/2022/03/18/cia-trained-ukrainians... https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306 https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306

csee 5y ago
> 2014 "revolution" was a coup You've provided no evidence for this. Either provide some evidence, or stop calling it a coup. Your [1] is about the US providing support to Ukraine against a Russian invasion after the revolution. EDIT: I just saw you posted more than one link, sorry about that. I was already aware of Nuland's leaked call where they're talking about who they want to replace Yanukovych. So? Of course they're going to have such a discussion in the middle of a revolution where someone is about to be ousted and they have relationships with existing people. Regarding the comments of the Estonian FM. Not close to evidence of a coup, or even suggestive. What would Estonia know of a covert CIA plot? This was just that person's opinion. Nobody knew about the Iranian coup outside of the US and Britain, for example. These things are kept under wraps. If Germany's FM was found to have said "it's not a coup", would this journalist have written about it? No. > original referendum to separate DPR and LPR from Ukraine witch al the west say "the vote is invalid because Ukraine constitution do not support secession" but NO ONE say was rigged and 90+% votes for being a new Republic. Actually there are allegations that it was rigged, not to mention the unconstitutional part. > Of course western resources are scarce, but something is easy to find Thank you for these resources. These are very concerning and disgusting people/actions. But it isn't genocide (that's a fairly high bar) and it isn't evidence of neo-nazism in Ukrainian leadership. As I said, Russia has a much bigger neo-fascism problem than Ukraine does. Both in general society (according to polls) and the fact that Putin himself is a literal fascist. > So "minor" that they represent around the totality of non-nazi parties This is yet another false statement on this topic. You're implying here that 90% of the seats are held by neo-Nazis, which is ridiculous. You also ignore the fact that some far-right parties were banned. And you ignore the fact that the root cause is Putin's invasion. > No doubt, and I'm pretty sure it's colleagues from Blackwater have similar tattoos... So you admit that Putin is sending in neo-Nazis to 'denazify' Ukraine. > Surely not, they are just criminals against humanity who push for various war crimes (do you remember Biden position about Belgrade bombing? About Iraq war, based on officially recognized lies?) You discredit yourself by thinking that Iraq is equivalent to Ukraine. Iraq was heinous, but invading in order to depose a totalitarian and cruel and widely hated dictator is not the same thing as invading to destroy a democracy, impose dictatorship, and intentionally shell civilians in near-genocidal fashion. You won't find a defender of Iraq in me, but it's a deeply misguided comparison and part of Russia's propaganda. Anyway; the history of US imperialism is fairly irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and Russia and what's happening now. > With some PRIVATE COMPANIES that ban peoples who say "non aligned" statements Why are you trying to compare a despot who jails or kills people for saying the wrong thing with private companies censoring stuff. In Russia, people go to jail. In the US, people go to rumble.com. Big difference. Anyway, it's irrelevant. > Any country have a bloody story, that's nothing new Am I defending bloody empires from 100 years ago? No. It's irrelevant. Don't bring it up. We are talking about Ukraine and Russia. Russia is an expansionist fascist dictatorship in the year 2022. I am not talking about Nazi Germany in 1940 or the British Empire before that.

by kkfx 5y ago

csee 5y ago

> 2014 "revolution" was a coup You've provided no evidence for this. Either provide some evidence, or stop calling it a coup. Your [1] is about the US providing support to Ukraine against a Russian invasion after the revolution. EDIT: I just saw you posted more than one link, sorry about that. I was already aware of Nuland's leaked call where they're talking about who they want to replace Yanukovych. So? Of course they're going to have such a discussion in the middle of a revolution where someone is about to be ousted and they have relationships with existing people. Regarding the comments of the Estonian FM. Not close to evidence of a coup, or even suggestive. What would Estonia know of a covert CIA plot? This was just that person's opinion. Nobody knew about the Iranian coup outside of the US and Britain, for example. These things are kept under wraps. If Germany's FM was found to have said "it's not a coup", would this journalist have written about it? No. > original referendum to separate DPR and LPR from Ukraine witch al the west say "the vote is invalid because Ukraine constitution do not support secession" but NO ONE say was rigged and 90+% votes for being a new Republic. Actually there are allegations that it was rigged, not to mention the unconstitutional part. > Of course western resources are scarce, but something is easy to find Thank you for these resources. These are very concerning and disgusting people/actions. But it isn't genocide (that's a fairly high bar) and it isn't evidence of neo-nazism in Ukrainian leadership. As I said, Russia has a much bigger neo-fascism problem than Ukraine does. Both in general society (according to polls) and the fact that Putin himself is a literal fascist. > So "minor" that they represent around the totality of non-nazi parties This is yet another false statement on this topic. You're implying here that 90% of the seats are held by neo-Nazis, which is ridiculous. You also ignore the fact that some far-right parties were banned. And you ignore the fact that the root cause is Putin's invasion. > No doubt, and I'm pretty sure it's colleagues from Blackwater have similar tattoos... So you admit that Putin is sending in neo-Nazis to 'denazify' Ukraine. > Surely not, they are just criminals against humanity who push for various war crimes (do you remember Biden position about Belgrade bombing? About Iraq war, based on officially recognized lies?) You discredit yourself by thinking that Iraq is equivalent to Ukraine. Iraq was heinous, but invading in order to depose a totalitarian and cruel and widely hated dictator is not the same thing as invading to destroy a democracy, impose dictatorship, and intentionally shell civilians in near-genocidal fashion. You won't find a defender of Iraq in me, but it's a deeply misguided comparison and part of Russia's propaganda. Anyway; the history of US imperialism is fairly irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and Russia and what's happening now. > With some PRIVATE COMPANIES that ban peoples who say "non aligned" statements Why are you trying to compare a despot who jails or kills people for saying the wrong thing with private companies censoring stuff. In Russia, people go to jail. In the US, people go to rumble.com. Big difference. Anyway, it's irrelevant. > Any country have a bloody story, that's nothing new Am I defending bloody empires from 100 years ago? No. It's irrelevant. Don't bring it up. We are talking about Ukraine and Russia. Russia is an expansionist fascist dictatorship in the year 2022. I am not talking about Nazi Germany in 1940 or the British Empire before that.