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Maybe I'm naive but I can see why Western countries tried to get Russia on board the world capitalism gravy train. Obviously the context has changed massively

Maybe I'm naive but I can see why Western countries tried to get Russia on board the world capitalism gravy train. Obviously the context has changed massively in the past month, maybe even since 2014. In any event, less reliance on fossil fuels is a good thing, and at the moment, less reliance on Russian fossil fuels in the EU is probably a good thing.

jacquesm 5y ago
Well, one assumption didn't hold: that in a more economically connected world war would be a thing of the past.
- _vmcx 5y ago
  Didn't we work this one out after WW1?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Not really, no. The USSR and China were pretty isolated spheres and there wasn't all that much trade between those blocks and 'the West' for a very long time. That all changed in the 80's, 90's and accelerated in the 00's. The idea was that if we don't want to engage them in a military way in a direct confrontation that by trading so much with each other that our economies would suffer substantially from either one breaking off that we would avoid doing so. The economical version of 'MAD'. That turns out to have been a mistake. What happened between WWI and WWII is not really representative in comparison.
throwaway_4ever 5y ago
The context changed in 2008 when they invaded Georgia.
lambdasquirrel 5y ago
I still remember the pictures of Merkel and Putin, when Merkel was negotiating for this stuff. Putin brought a big dog because he knew Merkel had a fear of them. Hindsight is 20/20 perhaps. It's really hard to understate the guilt that has existed in Germany over WWII. Also, in Western Europe, there's much more of an understanding that it was Russia that took the brunt of the fighting, not the U.S., and when the Berlin Wall fell, there were many who hoped for a new start. But Russia, with its geography and its legacy, was notoriously difficult to switch over to capitalism. The 1998 crash of the ruble left deep scars on the country. It may have almost been inevitable that a figure like Putin would arise, in part because we (in the West) were naive about how capitalism would take hold there. Regardless, there's the reality that there is now. Germany needs to be able to act in its own self-defense, and Europe needs to wean off of Russian fossil fuels, if only because the lines have been drawn. It's not clear that that arrangement was ever good for the rise of a friendly and economically healthy Russia.

jacquesm 5y ago

Well, one assumption didn't hold: that in a more economically connected world war would be a thing of the past.

_vmcx 5y ago
Didn't we work this one out after WW1?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Not really, no. The USSR and China were pretty isolated spheres and there wasn't all that much trade between those blocks and 'the West' for a very long time. That all changed in the 80's, 90's and accelerated in the 00's. The idea was that if we don't want to engage them in a military way in a direct confrontation that by trading so much with each other that our economies would suffer substantially from either one breaking off that we would avoid doing so. The economical version of 'MAD'. That turns out to have been a mistake. What happened between WWI and WWII is not really representative in comparison.

throwaway_4ever 5y ago

The context changed in 2008 when they invaded Georgia.

lambdasquirrel 5y ago

I still remember the pictures of Merkel and Putin, when Merkel was negotiating for this stuff. Putin brought a big dog because he knew Merkel had a fear of them. Hindsight is 20/20 perhaps. It's really hard to understate the guilt that has existed in Germany over WWII. Also, in Western Europe, there's much more of an understanding that it was Russia that took the brunt of the fighting, not the U.S., and when the Berlin Wall fell, there were many who hoped for a new start. But Russia, with its geography and its legacy, was notoriously difficult to switch over to capitalism. The 1998 crash of the ruble left deep scars on the country. It may have almost been inevitable that a figure like Putin would arise, in part because we (in the West) were naive about how capitalism would take hold there. Regardless, there's the reality that there is now. Germany needs to be able to act in its own self-defense, and Europe needs to wean off of Russian fossil fuels, if only because the lines have been drawn. It's not clear that that arrangement was ever good for the rise of a friendly and economically healthy Russia.