5 ms·

I don't know what the contract looks like; doesn't Germany have a legal obligation to pay Russia even if it were to stop LNG imports?

by krona 5y ago

alex-ant 5y ago
Russia breaks its legal obligations all the time.
swores 5y ago
Possibly, but without knowing what the contract looks like there's no reason to assume it doesn't have break clauses like most contracts.
gruez 5y ago
>legal obligation something tells me that Germany doesn't care about that right now.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Well yes, they simply can't cut the Gas. I don't know where people get the illusion from that you could "just get it from somewhere else" in matter of days/weeks. That's simply not the case at all. Even if we speaking about month and accepting Gas prices doubling or more it close to impossible. But the EU can't accept Gas prices exploding to that degree. While this article loves to blame Germany they kinda forget that part of this Gas is resold in to neighboring countries. Also in all of Germany (through slightly more so in east Germany) most houses heat with Gas, warm Water with Gas and especially on cheaper (longer not renovated) apartments also have a Gas oven and Stove. Until ~20 or so years ago central gas heating + gas stoves where the most common way to build apartment houses, in recent years its central gas heating + electronic stoves/ovens. Due to disagreements with Russia in recent years gas imports also have been limit to long term contracts, hence there are no (in this context relevant) gas reserves. Also while people love to say Germany is unnecessary switching of atomar power plants the truth is what they did wasn't building new ones. All the still running power plants are already operating well beyond the time they where build for. With the Ukraine conflict Germany "suspended" the shutdown of them, but they still need to shut down. Germany has space wise not much space. It can't afford a single reactor failure at all (like Germany might literally collapse if there is a reactor meltdown with some of the more central power plants). When the conflict started Germany did fast line some projects to become more/faster able to switch off or massive reduce Russian gas (like started building LNG ship terminals). But all of this takes time. Luckily spring is coming so it might be possible. But if you now would stop Gas you would practically derive millions of EU citizens of an affordable way to cook, heat and wash. And with affordable I don't mean cheap, but like affordable at all. With existing instabilities from COVID and a word wide re-emergence of facism you can guess twice if the EU would to so. Their main priority is to protect their citizens and constitution/democracy. Switching of Russian Gas now (like in a week) would likely fail both. So it's not an option at all, at least not _yet_. If their would be a doable way to switch of Russian Gas it would have been done. Similar if Russia could no longer send Gas they also would have done so to create massive internal instabilities in the EU. So the Gas sells are currently something neither party (Germany/Russia) likes but neither can stop either.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
...and if Germany didn't honor that contract? who's going to litigate?
- Panoramix 5y ago
  Where do they get their gas then? You can't change suppliers, it takes months if not years. Or should Germany go without heating through the winter?
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    the comment I'm replying to is about the contract and legal obligation, not the logistics of replacement
- pasquinelli 5y ago
  i guess they could break the contract but then what would force russia into a new contract later on?
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    their collapsing economy
    - pasquinelli 5y ago
      luckily that's a foregone conclusion
HWR_14 5y ago
First, almost any contract would include a force majeure clause which allows termination due to a war (among other acts). Failing that, the German government could just change the law to disallow the contract. Russia could ask for a binding(ish) decision from the international community, but this is one of those situations where I doubt the decision would go in their favor even if they were in the right legally.
deeviant 5y ago
Isn't Russian under a legal obligation to not invade their neighbor and murder it's people and cities?
- tromp 5y ago
  You're confusing legal with moral.
  - deeviant 5y ago
    No, I am not. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-02-25/international-law-says-putins-war-against-ukraine-is-illegal-does-that-matter https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-02-...
jacquesm 5y ago
I'm sure Germany would welcome a Russian dispute in front of the WTO.
corney91 5y ago
According to Ukraine's energy minister and an economic advisor in this article[1], gas is paid for in Euros and Germany could block the transfer to Roubles. > We propose that the Europeans continue to pay for pipeline-delivered gas and oil, but that the euro-denominated accounts of those Russian pipeline operators be frozen in terms of withdrawals. If properly implemented and enforced, this would mean that all gas customers continue to meet their contractual obligations, while through force majeure the EU creates what would be effectively escrow accounts for the duration of the war. [1] https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/03/volodymyr-zelenskys-advisers-explain-how-to-implement-a-russian-energy-embargo https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/03/vo...

I don't know what the contract looks like; doesn't Germany have a legal obligation to pay Russia even if it were to stop LNG imports?

by krona 5y ago

I don't know what the contract looks like; doesn't Germany have a legal obligation to pay Russia even if it were to stop LNG imports?

alex-ant 5y ago

Russia breaks its legal obligations all the time.

swores 5y ago

Possibly, but without knowing what the contract looks like there's no reason to assume it doesn't have break clauses like most contracts.

gruez 5y ago

>legal obligation something tells me that Germany doesn't care about that right now.

dathinab 5y ago
Well yes, they simply can't cut the Gas. I don't know where people get the illusion from that you could "just get it from somewhere else" in matter of days/weeks. That's simply not the case at all. Even if we speaking about month and accepting Gas prices doubling or more it close to impossible. But the EU can't accept Gas prices exploding to that degree. While this article loves to blame Germany they kinda forget that part of this Gas is resold in to neighboring countries. Also in all of Germany (through slightly more so in east Germany) most houses heat with Gas, warm Water with Gas and especially on cheaper (longer not renovated) apartments also have a Gas oven and Stove. Until ~20 or so years ago central gas heating + gas stoves where the most common way to build apartment houses, in recent years its central gas heating + electronic stoves/ovens. Due to disagreements with Russia in recent years gas imports also have been limit to long term contracts, hence there are no (in this context relevant) gas reserves. Also while people love to say Germany is unnecessary switching of atomar power plants the truth is what they did wasn't building new ones. All the still running power plants are already operating well beyond the time they where build for. With the Ukraine conflict Germany "suspended" the shutdown of them, but they still need to shut down. Germany has space wise not much space. It can't afford a single reactor failure at all (like Germany might literally collapse if there is a reactor meltdown with some of the more central power plants). When the conflict started Germany did fast line some projects to become more/faster able to switch off or massive reduce Russian gas (like started building LNG ship terminals). But all of this takes time. Luckily spring is coming so it might be possible. But if you now would stop Gas you would practically derive millions of EU citizens of an affordable way to cook, heat and wash. And with affordable I don't mean cheap, but like affordable at all. With existing instabilities from COVID and a word wide re-emergence of facism you can guess twice if the EU would to so. Their main priority is to protect their citizens and constitution/democracy. Switching of Russian Gas now (like in a week) would likely fail both. So it's not an option at all, at least not _yet_. If their would be a doable way to switch of Russian Gas it would have been done. Similar if Russia could no longer send Gas they also would have done so to create massive internal instabilities in the EU. So the Gas sells are currently something neither party (Germany/Russia) likes but neither can stop either.

micromacrofoot 5y ago

...and if Germany didn't honor that contract? who's going to litigate?

Panoramix 5y ago
Where do they get their gas then? You can't change suppliers, it takes months if not years. Or should Germany go without heating through the winter?
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  the comment I'm replying to is about the contract and legal obligation, not the logistics of replacement
pasquinelli 5y ago
i guess they could break the contract but then what would force russia into a new contract later on?
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  their collapsing economy
  - pasquinelli 5y ago
    luckily that's a foregone conclusion

HWR_14 5y ago

First, almost any contract would include a force majeure clause which allows termination due to a war (among other acts). Failing that, the German government could just change the law to disallow the contract. Russia could ask for a binding(ish) decision from the international community, but this is one of those situations where I doubt the decision would go in their favor even if they were in the right legally.

deeviant 5y ago

Isn't Russian under a legal obligation to not invade their neighbor and murder it's people and cities?

tromp 5y ago
You're confusing legal with moral.
- deeviant 5y ago
  No, I am not. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-02-25/international-law-says-putins-war-against-ukraine-is-illegal-does-that-matter https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-02-...

jacquesm 5y ago

I'm sure Germany would welcome a Russian dispute in front of the WTO.

corney91 5y ago

According to Ukraine's energy minister and an economic advisor in this article[1], gas is paid for in Euros and Germany could block the transfer to Roubles. > We propose that the Europeans continue to pay for pipeline-delivered gas and oil, but that the euro-denominated accounts of those Russian pipeline operators be frozen in terms of withdrawals. If properly implemented and enforced, this would mean that all gas customers continue to meet their contractual obligations, while through force majeure the EU creates what would be effectively escrow accounts for the duration of the war. [1] https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/03/volodymyr-zelenskys-advisers-explain-how-to-implement-a-russian-energy-embargo https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/03/vo...