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Just the thought of presenting some kind of physical evidence and that would somehow verify that it "works" or is "true" and would be accepted by everyone revea
by prometheus76 5y ago
Just the thought of presenting some kind of physical evidence and that would somehow verify that it "works" or is "true" and would be accepted by everyone reveals your materialist worldview and is a key to understanding why these beliefs exist in pre-modern cultures around the world. The traditional world looks at the world as a hierarchy of being and a hierarchy of meaning. That's completely different than a materialist viewpoint of the world, but it explains why you see their beliefs as baffling and they see materialism as myopically ignorant.
- wonderwonder 5y agowhat does materialism have to do with facts? JUJU is not real. Also the article specifies that they are killing people for materialistic wants, they are trying to cast spells to get money.
- singlow 5y agoThis is a different use of the word materialism. You are reading it as the tendency to consider material possessions of high importance. The post is referring to a philosophical doctrine that nothing exists except for matter, its movements and its modifications. This is in contrast to belief systems that include things that are "supernatural" such as invisible beings, spirits, mystical energy forces, etc.
- triactual 5y agoPrevious comment means materialism as defined in philosophy. Not materialistic.
- prometheus76 5y agoI don't mean materialism as in a love of money or material goods. I mean materialism as in believing that truth claims must be verified with empirical, physical evidence. People in traditional societies do not think physicality or empiricism is the primary way of determining what is true. These people are showing you that fear, desperation, and hope lead them to believing a narrative that requires them to take another human being's life in the hope of gaining some physical advantage for themselves. They are literally sacrificing another human being for the hope of improving their own future. Is what they are doing based on some empirical evidence? No. Are the effects of what they believe still real? Yes. Their hierarchy of ontology has a coherence of its own and allows their society to function, and is a very ancient structure. The concept of the "evil eye" (which is tightly related to these African practices) is a very old mechanism for managing wealth (and good or bad fortune) in communities for thousands of years. To come along and say "well, this is nonsense. Let's convince them they're wrong by using physical evidence to prove it!" seems pretty hubristic.
- beaconstudios 5y agoOr in other words, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
- mixedCase 5y agoYes, you can. Not everyone, not all beliefs, but it's certainly not futile to try.
- AvocadoPanic 5y agoIsn't attempting to divert native peoples from their traditional beliefs, customs and traditions colonialism?
- mixedCase 5y agoIt certainly is if in the process you establish a colony there and start taking lands by force. People who do that also try to erase any previously existing culture, good and evil beliefs alike. Otherwise, no. In this particular case, you'd simply be trying to get people to stop killing innocents in the name of spiritual/religious beliefs; something that is clearly evil and, in my opinion, so is anyone who tries to pretend it is not whether they believe that honestly or is just arguing in bad faith.
- wonderwonder 5y agofair enough, I saw you using the word in a different manner, my apologies. At the same time though, their actions are the very real world murder and mutilation of innocents. Hubris or not, I think in this situation its ok to shake one's head and be pretty outraged and disappointed in their beliefs and the actions that they lead too. Not sure of the solution but one does not have to feel bad for not attempting to empathize with people that are murdering others for supernatural profit.
- krisoft 5y ago> The traditional world looks at the world as a hierarchy of being and a hierarchy of meaning. <sarcasm> Cool cool cool... Back to the topic of that juju which makes you stab proof. I'm sure you don't mind if I stab you while you hold on to it. Would that be okay with the hierarchy of being and the hierarchy of meaning? Not proving anything mind you, i would never ever do anything as violent as trying to force my materialist worldview on you. </sarcasm> That being said probably juju which is supposed to bring you diffuse and probabilistic benefit is dime a dozen, while ones bringing you easy to verify, concrete, and immediate benefits are harder to find. Such is life I guess. :)
- chalst 5y agoThis "hierarchy of being and a hierarchy of meaning" is the justification superstition retreats to when its plain claims are revealed to be simply false. There's also a false dichotomy here: you don't ether have to have respect for base superstition or subscribe to materialism. There's plenty of room for philosophies that reject both horns of this dilemma.
- nkrisc 5y agoBut either people turn into cats or they don't. Either money comes out of the pot or it doesn't. What am I missing? Are you saying no one actually believes you turn into a cat but it has some other meaning apart from the literal meaning of those words?