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Right, as with the cookie laws companies seem to have collectively come to the idea that "they can't catch us all!" So far they seem to be correct. I would rea

Right, as with the cookie laws companies seem to have collectively come to the idea that "they can't catch us all!" So far they seem to be correct. I would really like to see the courts deal a few black eyes over this, I hope this tool can help.

shadowgovt 5y ago
I'm not sure what lessons the rest of the world should have taken from the US's "war on drugs" (or, for that matter, the US's prohibition before it). ... but "If you pass the law that outlaws a wildly-popular behavior, most people will stop that behavior" probably wasn't it. Law can bend behavior on the margins. It just encourages rule-breaking when you try to drive it like a spike through the middle.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Wait, they criminalized it? I thought it was just fines for shitty behavior. Fines for shitty behavior I can get behind. "We were used to getting away with it" is a poor excuse that gets poorer every day. But yeah, making it criminal is too far too fast. Assuming they've actually done that. EDIT: they haven't, "shadowgovt" just overstated the comparison. No, I do not believe that getting away scot-free with shitty behavior today entitles anyone to get away scot-free with shitty behavior tomorrow.
- vanviegen 5y ago
  Enslaving people used to be wildly popular behavior as well... So do you propose we stop trying to bend society into something less bad?
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    In my country, we didn't end that practice without a civil war. I think that story is an excellent example of the limits of the coersive power of law. Even though the goal is righteous, the law may be the wrong tool to achieve it. What alternative tools can be deployed on this topic?
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      The law has yet to be enforced properly and consistently. Enforcing the law would be a good start before considering alternative options.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        Is the issue of consistent and proper enforcement a "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" issue, or a lack of resources to police / monitor / enforce issue right now? IIUC, enforcement must be "proportionate," but that's a pretty anxiety-inducing word in a law unless there's either solid precedent to establish what that word means or an oversight board. And if the issue is that they're under-funded, I agree with increasing resources to proportionate to the need to properly enforce the law. Coupled with proper proportionate penalties (including warnings for good-faith efforts to compliance, making the law a bit more like online speeding tickets than the 20-million-euro minimum penalty suggests it should be), it may be able to adjust behavior. On the other hand, I'd expect the resulting behavior adjustment magnitude to be in the realm of speeding tickets (with the occasional reckless-driving for, say, a FAANG mass-harvesting data). Maybe that's good enough for the goals though.
mpweiher 5y ago
> So far they seem to be correct. Not really. Just recently: GDPR enforcer rules that IAB Europe’s consent popups are unlawful https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30176712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30176712 This is going to require some time, and thus some patience.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Nice! Hopefully they keep up the pressure.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  I don't agree with the approach for obvious reasons, but he's not entirely wrong either. Even that ruling doesn't change anything - the IAB was fined a token amount, the others get off scot-free and can keep the profits earned over 4 years of illicit data processing.
  - mpweiher 5y ago
    Quite the opposite, the ruling made clear that trying to outsource the risk to a third party doesn't work. "All data collected through the TCF must now be deleted by the more than 1,000 companies that pay IAB Europe to use the TCF. This includes Google’s, Amazon’s and Microsoft’s online advertising businesses." And if they don't comply with that...
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      > And if they don't comply with that... How are they going to find out? Are they mandating source code & database audits? If it took them 4 years to take action on something that was pushed in every web user's face several times per day, you're probably looking for a few millennia for them to take action on something only a few hundred company insiders are aware of.
- tick_tock_tick 5y ago
  I mean this clearly is still being worked out as consent popups are a requirement of the law but the enforcers and courts don't seem to like that fact and are getting very creative in there interpretations to avoid the explicit requirements of the law.

shadowgovt 5y ago

I'm not sure what lessons the rest of the world should have taken from the US's "war on drugs" (or, for that matter, the US's prohibition before it). ... but "If you pass the law that outlaws a wildly-popular behavior, most people will stop that behavior" probably wasn't it. Law can bend behavior on the margins. It just encourages rule-breaking when you try to drive it like a spike through the middle.

jjoonathan 5y ago
Wait, they criminalized it? I thought it was just fines for shitty behavior. Fines for shitty behavior I can get behind. "We were used to getting away with it" is a poor excuse that gets poorer every day. But yeah, making it criminal is too far too fast. Assuming they've actually done that. EDIT: they haven't, "shadowgovt" just overstated the comparison. No, I do not believe that getting away scot-free with shitty behavior today entitles anyone to get away scot-free with shitty behavior tomorrow.
vanviegen 5y ago
Enslaving people used to be wildly popular behavior as well... So do you propose we stop trying to bend society into something less bad?
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  In my country, we didn't end that practice without a civil war. I think that story is an excellent example of the limits of the coersive power of law. Even though the goal is righteous, the law may be the wrong tool to achieve it. What alternative tools can be deployed on this topic?
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    The law has yet to be enforced properly and consistently. Enforcing the law would be a good start before considering alternative options.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      Is the issue of consistent and proper enforcement a "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" issue, or a lack of resources to police / monitor / enforce issue right now? IIUC, enforcement must be "proportionate," but that's a pretty anxiety-inducing word in a law unless there's either solid precedent to establish what that word means or an oversight board. And if the issue is that they're under-funded, I agree with increasing resources to proportionate to the need to properly enforce the law. Coupled with proper proportionate penalties (including warnings for good-faith efforts to compliance, making the law a bit more like online speeding tickets than the 20-million-euro minimum penalty suggests it should be), it may be able to adjust behavior. On the other hand, I'd expect the resulting behavior adjustment magnitude to be in the realm of speeding tickets (with the occasional reckless-driving for, say, a FAANG mass-harvesting data). Maybe that's good enough for the goals though.

mpweiher 5y ago

> So far they seem to be correct. Not really. Just recently: GDPR enforcer rules that IAB Europe’s consent popups are unlawful https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30176712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30176712 This is going to require some time, and thus some patience.

jjoonathan 5y ago
Nice! Hopefully they keep up the pressure.
Nextgrid 5y ago
I don't agree with the approach for obvious reasons, but he's not entirely wrong either. Even that ruling doesn't change anything - the IAB was fined a token amount, the others get off scot-free and can keep the profits earned over 4 years of illicit data processing.
- mpweiher 5y ago
  Quite the opposite, the ruling made clear that trying to outsource the risk to a third party doesn't work. "All data collected through the TCF must now be deleted by the more than 1,000 companies that pay IAB Europe to use the TCF. This includes Google’s, Amazon’s and Microsoft’s online advertising businesses." And if they don't comply with that...
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > And if they don't comply with that... How are they going to find out? Are they mandating source code & database audits? If it took them 4 years to take action on something that was pushed in every web user's face several times per day, you're probably looking for a few millennia for them to take action on something only a few hundred company insiders are aware of.
tick_tock_tick 5y ago
I mean this clearly is still being worked out as consent popups are a requirement of the law but the enforcers and courts don't seem to like that fact and are getting very creative in there interpretations to avoid the explicit requirements of the law.