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I think this is a pretty mainstream view, not sure it would be considered contrarian at this point. Not to say it means that everyone has moved on from a cultur

I think this is a pretty mainstream view, not sure it would be considered contrarian at this point. Not to say it means that everyone has moved on from a culture of long hours. But I'd say quality over quantity is a pretty easy sell nowadays, the harder question is how to get to quality. Long hours seem more like the thing to do when you don't know what else to do.

smackeyacky 5y ago
Since I started working for myself, I do find periods of time where long hours are the norm. Most of the time I stick to a more regular schedule, but when I was building an MVP I put in long hours because taking a break meant having to re-learn how all the code went together. Once I had made the various breakthroughs, I backed off again. Then later, when working with our first customers I found myself working long hours again. Now I've backed off again somewhat. So I don't think it's necessarily "when you don't know what else to do", for me it was driven by either not wanting to miss an opportunity or trying to hit some deadline. Most of the time now I can choose when to do that, and often find it's more productive to be contemplative about things like new features rather than doing them in a hurry and having to do more refactoring later on. Then again, in some parts of your business cycle you simply don't have that luxury.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time. I recently resigned from a job where it was becoming clear the business wanted to set unrealistic deadlines and just expected devs to work extra to meet them. This company didn't offer shares or even have a bonus structure in place. It is not ok to expect your employees to work extra to meet your (frankly unreasonable) deadlines when they don't even stand to gain anything from it.
  - smackeyacky 5y ago
    I agree with that. Its partly why I quit a job like that myself.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    >That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time. I'm not so sure, I suspect all the reasons it's bad for an employee are equally true for a founder.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      Yes, probably. But at least in the founder's case, they stand to materially gain in a big way if they succeed, so the tradeoff may be worth it someday
deleted 5y ago
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thomasfromcdnjs 5y ago
I was excited to read an article of someone saying that long hours is actually good aha Still a well written and thoughtful post.
boffv5mum 5y ago
> Long hours seem more like the thing to do when you don't know what else to do. No that would be your mum
banannaise 5y ago
It's mainstream, but specifically among laborers. Managers, and particularly executives, still seem to overwhelmingly disagree. And guess who sets the rules?

smackeyacky 5y ago

Since I started working for myself, I do find periods of time where long hours are the norm. Most of the time I stick to a more regular schedule, but when I was building an MVP I put in long hours because taking a break meant having to re-learn how all the code went together. Once I had made the various breakthroughs, I backed off again. Then later, when working with our first customers I found myself working long hours again. Now I've backed off again somewhat. So I don't think it's necessarily "when you don't know what else to do", for me it was driven by either not wanting to miss an opportunity or trying to hit some deadline. Most of the time now I can choose when to do that, and often find it's more productive to be contemplative about things like new features rather than doing them in a hurry and having to do more refactoring later on. Then again, in some parts of your business cycle you simply don't have that luxury.

bluefirebrand 5y ago
That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time. I recently resigned from a job where it was becoming clear the business wanted to set unrealistic deadlines and just expected devs to work extra to meet them. This company didn't offer shares or even have a bonus structure in place. It is not ok to expect your employees to work extra to meet your (frankly unreasonable) deadlines when they don't even stand to gain anything from it.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  I agree with that. Its partly why I quit a job like that myself.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >That's fine when working for yourself, you clearly stand to gain by putting in longer hours from time to time. I'm not so sure, I suspect all the reasons it's bad for an employee are equally true for a founder.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    Yes, probably. But at least in the founder's case, they stand to materially gain in a big way if they succeed, so the tradeoff may be worth it someday

deleted 5y ago

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thomasfromcdnjs 5y ago

I was excited to read an article of someone saying that long hours is actually good aha Still a well written and thoughtful post.

boffv5mum 5y ago

> Long hours seem more like the thing to do when you don't know what else to do. No that would be your mum

banannaise 5y ago

It's mainstream, but specifically among laborers. Managers, and particularly executives, still seem to overwhelmingly disagree. And guess who sets the rules?