3 ms·

I disagree with you here. I find that Xorg is really starting to show cracks as new hardware, and especially new inputs, are becoming mainstream. In particula

I disagree with you here. I find that Xorg is really starting to show cracks as new hardware, and especially new inputs, are becoming mainstream. In particular, I think Xorg does a crappy job with - Audio in general (but bluetooth specifically) - Gesture/touchpad input (some folks are trying to fund this still, but Wayland feels about as good as macOS by default - This was my "must have" feature that pushed me to wayland everywhere) - HiDPI support - it's ok if you have the same resolution on every screen. If you're mixing resolutions, wayland is MILES better. Even XWayland is bad here - this is just truly a limitation of XOrg. - Privacy. This one is a mixed blessing. XOrg lets apps do a lot of things to other apps. This is nice in some ways, because things like screen-recorders work easily and without permissions. But problematic because it means any app can quietly be a screen recorder. --- Xorg still wins in terms of overall compatibility, and in user customization. But I think it's pretty clear from the statements from the Xorg & Wayland teams that Xorg is not just "mature" - it's in the process of being slowly replaced with system that most of them feel is better. I think the more likely scenario is that you are not using the features that really make a distinction (which is a-ok!). In that case stick with what works for you. Xorg isn't going anywhere any time soon, and if your workflow is stable, you aren't missing the new stuff. But other people absolutely are, and it's not because Xorg is "finished" - it's because it's broken and no longer getting the level of support it used to, that's mostly going to Wayland now (and it REALLY shows, if you use it for a while).

vasvir 5y ago
Audio? I believe X has nothing to do with audio. This is a job for ALSA, pulseaudio and most recently pipewire.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  Pipewire and Wayland development have gone hand-in-hand for a while now. Mainly - Pipewire is compatible with the security and isolation requirements wayland places on apps, and Pipewire is far more than just a replacement for pulseaudio. --- Here - to quote the debian wiki (https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire): "PipeWire is a server and API for handling multimedia on Linux. Its most common use is for Wayland and Flatpak applications to implement screensharing, remote desktop, and other forms of audio and video routing between different pieces of software. Per the official FAQ, "you can think of it as a multimedia routing layer on top of the drivers that applications and libraries can use."
exikyut 5y ago
Addressing each point: - Xorg hasn't directly handled audio since the days of 2.4 era kernels (anybody remember NAS?). PulseAudio and PipeWire revolve around D-Bus and their concern around the graphical desktop mostly involves seat configuration rather than what's powering the seat (X11, Wayland). - libinput works on X11 too (and I know I'm using libinput because I accidentally installed synaptics/evdev first xD). I personally love how trackpad scroll on Linux just feels infinitely smoother and more precise than the same hardware on Windows 10. - HiDPI is in a state of global discohesion structurally speaking at the moment, I think because of some demographic correlations. The art/production/engineering/get-things-done side of the fence was already buying expensive peripherals a decade ago - for example you could play with 3840x2400@41Hz in 2003 if you had $9000 for a 22" IBM T221 and quad-link DVI. That's an extreme example; it didn't take that much enablement to be quite selective about one's productivity tools. However, I don't think many people in this niche used Linux in a predominantly-tinkering use-case - they were too busy getting things done and focusing on sustaining revenue. The Linux users were the kids and teenagers and 20-somethings often found figuring it out on ~decade-old equipment and making the best of random resources they found lying around. Now, HiDPI may seem to have theoretically zeroed the distance between prosumer and some kid working with whatever they've got, but there are three issues: first, software support follows commoditized access to hardware, and given the focus on laptops nowadays (and the inconsistency of the laptop hardware situation at the moment with things like s0ix etc) people are sticking with whatever's in their known-good 5-10+ year old banger or whatever; second, yes, HiDPI has brought the high-end and the low-end together *in hardware*, but done nothing around the current *software* status quo, wherein the high/low-end not-really-a-rift-but-kinda is still kicking around and doesn't quite know what to do with itself yet and people are still finding themselves self-sort into a few common buckets (see also the argument about HiDPI being a "gimmick" and a "premium"); in a couple years when laptops have gotten their acts sorted out and HiDPI displays cost the same as 1920x1080 things will perhaps look a bit different; thirdly, these logistical distractions do not help the already-fragmented world of open source where it's so incredibly easy for new ideas to never gain critical mass because everyone gets hung up on details and bikesheds. I can easily guess that there have probably been a few individual attempts and initiatives to try and fix this that have just never had the chance to get off the ground because so few people with HiDPI screens are willing to play guinea pig for a bit (case in point / mea culpa). So, HiDPI will probably reach a crystallization point right around the moment where hardware accessibility starts to bottom out and software initiatives have had a chance to settle and stabilize, most likely on Wayland where that's already being fostered. Chances are something similar to the libinput "touchpad like macOS" effort will come along and try and backport whatever gets figured out to X11. Good question whether it'll be successful. - Privacy: See also $ eval $(xmodmap -pke | awk '{print"K["$2"]="$4}'); xinput test-xi2 --root | sed -un '/RawKeyPress/{N;N;s/.*detail: $[0-9]\+$.*/\1/;p}' | while read x; do echo ${K[$x]}; done (Leave it running, go do something else) :P Xorg reminds me of the hackable mindset used in the old Lisp machines, where you could (supposedly) tweak anything you wanted. I'm not sure but I think those crazy machines had no memory protection - not that they would have used it anyway, that would have been antithetical to the ideology. X's hackability is I think one of the reasons it has survived as long as it has with such elegance. Sadly this has indeed come at the cost of abject insecurity. But it's honestly going to be a bit jarring when it's gone. :v (NB. I don't remember NAS. I learned about its (ex-)existence while playing with the xscope X protocol debugger a while back.)

vasvir 5y ago

Audio? I believe X has nothing to do with audio. This is a job for ALSA, pulseaudio and most recently pipewire.

horsawlarway 5y ago
Pipewire and Wayland development have gone hand-in-hand for a while now. Mainly - Pipewire is compatible with the security and isolation requirements wayland places on apps, and Pipewire is far more than just a replacement for pulseaudio. --- Here - to quote the debian wiki (https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire): "PipeWire is a server and API for handling multimedia on Linux. Its most common use is for Wayland and Flatpak applications to implement screensharing, remote desktop, and other forms of audio and video routing between different pieces of software. Per the official FAQ, "you can think of it as a multimedia routing layer on top of the drivers that applications and libraries can use."

exikyut 5y ago

Addressing each point: - Xorg hasn't directly handled audio since the days of 2.4 era kernels (anybody remember NAS?). PulseAudio and PipeWire revolve around D-Bus and their concern around the graphical desktop mostly involves seat configuration rather than what's powering the seat (X11, Wayland). - libinput works on X11 too (and I know I'm using libinput because I accidentally installed synaptics/evdev first xD). I personally love how trackpad scroll on Linux just feels infinitely smoother and more precise than the same hardware on Windows 10. - HiDPI is in a state of global discohesion structurally speaking at the moment, I think because of some demographic correlations. The art/production/engineering/get-things-done side of the fence was already buying expensive peripherals a decade ago - for example you could play with 3840x2400@41Hz in 2003 if you had $9000 for a 22" IBM T221 and quad-link DVI. That's an extreme example; it didn't take that much enablement to be quite selective about one's productivity tools. However, I don't think many people in this niche used Linux in a predominantly-tinkering use-case - they were too busy getting things done and focusing on sustaining revenue. The Linux users were the kids and teenagers and 20-somethings often found figuring it out on ~decade-old equipment and making the best of random resources they found lying around. Now, HiDPI may seem to have theoretically zeroed the distance between prosumer and some kid working with whatever they've got, but there are three issues: first, software support follows commoditized access to hardware, and given the focus on laptops nowadays (and the inconsistency of the laptop hardware situation at the moment with things like s0ix etc) people are sticking with whatever's in their known-good 5-10+ year old banger or whatever; second, yes, HiDPI has brought the high-end and the low-end together *in hardware*, but done nothing around the current *software* status quo, wherein the high/low-end not-really-a-rift-but-kinda is still kicking around and doesn't quite know what to do with itself yet and people are still finding themselves self-sort into a few common buckets (see also the argument about HiDPI being a "gimmick" and a "premium"); in a couple years when laptops have gotten their acts sorted out and HiDPI displays cost the same as 1920x1080 things will perhaps look a bit different; thirdly, these logistical distractions do not help the already-fragmented world of open source where it's so incredibly easy for new ideas to never gain critical mass because everyone gets hung up on details and bikesheds. I can easily guess that there have probably been a few individual attempts and initiatives to try and fix this that have just never had the chance to get off the ground because so few people with HiDPI screens are willing to play guinea pig for a bit (case in point / mea culpa). So, HiDPI will probably reach a crystallization point right around the moment where hardware accessibility starts to bottom out and software initiatives have had a chance to settle and stabilize, most likely on Wayland where that's already being fostered. Chances are something similar to the libinput "touchpad like macOS" effort will come along and try and backport whatever gets figured out to X11. Good question whether it'll be successful. - Privacy: See also $ eval $(xmodmap -pke | awk '{print"K["$2"]="$4}'); xinput test-xi2 --root | sed -un '/RawKeyPress/{N;N;s/.*detail: $[0-9]\+$.*/\1/;p}' | while read x; do echo ${K[$x]}; done (Leave it running, go do something else) :P Xorg reminds me of the hackable mindset used in the old Lisp machines, where you could (supposedly) tweak anything you wanted. I'm not sure but I think those crazy machines had no memory protection - not that they would have used it anyway, that would have been antithetical to the ideology. X's hackability is I think one of the reasons it has survived as long as it has with such elegance. Sadly this has indeed come at the cost of abject insecurity. But it's honestly going to be a bit jarring when it's gone. :v (NB. I don't remember NAS. I learned about its (ex-)existence while playing with the xscope X protocol debugger a while back.)