3 ms·

Negotiation is the inverse of tipping.

muzani 5y ago
An anecdote from 48 Laws of Power: Akimoto Suzutomo, a wealthy adherent of the tea ceremony, once gave his page 100 ryo (gold pieces) and instructed him to purchase a tea bowl offered by a particular dealer. When the page saw the bowl, he doubted it was worth that much, and after much bargaining got the price reduced to 95 ryo. Days later, after Suzutomo had put the bowl to use, the page proudly told him what he had done. “What an ignoramus you are!” replied Suzutomo. “A tea bowl that anyone asks 100 pieces of gold for can only be a family heirloom, and a thing like that is only sold when the family is pressed for money. And in that case they will be hoping to find someone who will give even 150 pieces for it. So what sort of fellow is it who does not consider their feelings? Quite apart from that, a curio that you give 100 ryo for is something worth having, but one that has only cost 95 gives a mean impression. So never let me see that tea bowl again!” And he had the bowl locked away, and never took it out.
- leetcrew 5y ago
  I don't really understand the story. the guy is trying to pay 100 for something he suspects a struggling family hopes to sell for 150, and he's mad that the page haggled off an additional 5?
  - dorgo 5y ago
    For me the problem is: every time I drink tea from this bowl I'll be reminded that I took away 5 coins from a struggeling family. I rather pay 150 and for the rest of my life am rimended how I genrously helped a stuggeling family.
  - davidmanheim 5y ago
    Yes. Turns out that commercial transactions happen in a social context, and even when it doesn't come back to bite you financially, sometimes paying less has social costs that are far higher than what you "saved".
    - leetcrew 5y ago
      right, I understand from thread context the conclusion I am supposed to draw. what I don't understand is the internal logic of the story. the guy is described as wealthy, and apparently is already taking advantage of a struggling family by offering 100 when he suspects they are hoping for 150. I'm inferring that anything in the 100s range of this currency is trivial to him. so why the outrage over the last 5 rather than the first 50?
      - exolymph 5y ago
        It's not about the money, it's about honor, and what different amounts mean to other people.
      - rawgabbit 5y ago
        The seller is presumably an aristocratic family fallen into hard times. They are selling a presumably rare and famous item. The buyer's agent haggled over the item instead of just stating a flat price they were willing to pay. If the buyer displays the item, then elite of Feudal Japan will say "Poor so and so, they got taken advantaged of by a merciless nouveau riche. Make sure not to invite that person to our upper class parties. We may be poor compared to them; but we still have our samurai pride." Edited for spelling.
        muzani 5y ago
        To note, honor meant a lot more during the samurai era. Someone who is not compassionate either comes across as manipulative or not alert to their surroundings. Manipulative people were bad allies. Inattention is a form of weakness. Dishonor wasn't just not being invited to parties, it could well mean death.
      - muzani 5y ago
        It was an act of calculated generosity - buying something that wasn't really worth that much. But you can't negotiate and look generous at the same time. 5 ryo transformed the context from helping out a poor family to taking advantage of someone's poverty. In this case, the listed price is the floor price, even though the seller agreed to less in the end. The expected price was unlisted. With tipping, the floor price is actually higher than the listed price. Someone might agree to sell at a lower price, but below that floor price, it brings great dishonor.

An anecdote from 48 Laws of Power: Akimoto Suzutomo, a wealthy adherent of the tea ceremony, once gave his page 100 ryo (gold pieces) and instructed him to purchase a tea bowl offered by a particular dealer. When the page saw the bowl, he doubted it was worth that much, and after much bargaining got the price reduced to 95 ryo. Days later, after Suzutomo had put the bowl to use, the page proudly told him what he had done. “What an ignoramus you are!” replied Suzutomo. “A tea bowl that anyone asks 100 pieces of gold for can only be a family heirloom, and a thing like that is only sold when the family is pressed for money. And in that case they will be hoping to find someone who will give even 150 pieces for it. So what sort of fellow is it who does not consider their feelings? Quite apart from that, a curio that you give 100 ryo for is something worth having, but one that has only cost 95 gives a mean impression. So never let me see that tea bowl again!” And he had the bowl locked away, and never took it out.

leetcrew 5y ago
I don't really understand the story. the guy is trying to pay 100 for something he suspects a struggling family hopes to sell for 150, and he's mad that the page haggled off an additional 5?
- dorgo 5y ago
  For me the problem is: every time I drink tea from this bowl I'll be reminded that I took away 5 coins from a struggeling family. I rather pay 150 and for the rest of my life am rimended how I genrously helped a stuggeling family.
- davidmanheim 5y ago
  Yes. Turns out that commercial transactions happen in a social context, and even when it doesn't come back to bite you financially, sometimes paying less has social costs that are far higher than what you "saved".
  - leetcrew 5y ago
    right, I understand from thread context the conclusion I am supposed to draw. what I don't understand is the internal logic of the story. the guy is described as wealthy, and apparently is already taking advantage of a struggling family by offering 100 when he suspects they are hoping for 150. I'm inferring that anything in the 100s range of this currency is trivial to him. so why the outrage over the last 5 rather than the first 50?
    - exolymph 5y ago
      It's not about the money, it's about honor, and what different amounts mean to other people.
    - rawgabbit 5y ago
      The seller is presumably an aristocratic family fallen into hard times. They are selling a presumably rare and famous item. The buyer's agent haggled over the item instead of just stating a flat price they were willing to pay. If the buyer displays the item, then elite of Feudal Japan will say "Poor so and so, they got taken advantaged of by a merciless nouveau riche. Make sure not to invite that person to our upper class parties. We may be poor compared to them; but we still have our samurai pride." Edited for spelling.
      - muzani 5y ago
        To note, honor meant a lot more during the samurai era. Someone who is not compassionate either comes across as manipulative or not alert to their surroundings. Manipulative people were bad allies. Inattention is a form of weakness. Dishonor wasn't just not being invited to parties, it could well mean death.
    - muzani 5y ago
      It was an act of calculated generosity - buying something that wasn't really worth that much. But you can't negotiate and look generous at the same time. 5 ryo transformed the context from helping out a poor family to taking advantage of someone's poverty. In this case, the listed price is the floor price, even though the seller agreed to less in the end. The expected price was unlisted. With tipping, the floor price is actually higher than the listed price. Someone might agree to sell at a lower price, but below that floor price, it brings great dishonor.