6 ms·

After 10 years I still don't understand why I should switch away from X11. It is mature and is still being developed (latest xorg-server release is from January

After 10 years I still don't understand why I should switch away from X11. It is mature and is still being developed (latest xorg-server release is from January 2022). It does what I need. From my perspective, Wayland is like btrfs - it doesn't seem to offer me anything major worth switching for, and there are still gotcha's lurking.

fsflover 5y ago
> why I should switch away from X11 Security: https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2011/04/23/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2011/04/23/linux-security-c....
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  In the vanishingly unlikely case that that matters, you can just run things in Xephyr. You can even use firejail to automate it, which is probably a good idea anyways if you're running malicious code on your machine.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    I prefer running Qubes OS, but Xephyr is of course also a possibility.
filmor 5y ago
I started using it (about 4 or 5 years ago, I think) mostly because I really don't like tearing. I never got a completely tearing-free Xorg setup working for me.
- mehdix 5y ago
  Now that you mentioned tearing, I noticed that I can't even remember when was the last time I saw one. Before switching to Wayland/GNOME and then Wayland/Sway there was a dark era where I was fighting/struggling to keep a tearing-free video experience and crazy config to keep my keyboard layout in-sync when switching desktops/windows etc. Really glad that there is another option on the table.
- lewispollard 5y ago
  Fwiw, I have zero tearing on KDE Plasma+Nvidia on X11 with VSync enabled.
tlamponi 5y ago
xwayland is still being actively developed, xserver is in maintenance mode, which isn't a bad thing, especially for such an old, somewhat mature tech, but being actively developed is something else in my understanding. And one just cannot do away its architectural problems, which was the reason for a "from scratch with (some) hindsight" approach in the first place, under which new approaches like Wayland and mir got developed. > It does what I need. If the features of neither of those fit your use cases: great, be happy and keep using what works for you. But I, for one, like to have no tearing anymore, no random apps just stealing my keyboard input or clipboard content, having a more efficient way to operate on (frame) buffers, having active development for new tech features like HDR and that all while still running xwayland for 100% x11 compat; you cannot do the reverse, at least while not also getting the same features. So, I really like wayland as it gives people the possibility for better security/sandboxing and new features while I can just run x11 apps fine. > From my perspective, Wayland is like btrfs The same with btrfs, as RAID0/1/10 its just nice and stable since forever, its architecture is seemingly just a bad fit for RAID5/6, the single possible problematic part since a while, CoW and rebalancing are really nice to have on a server with important data. Multiple FS catering to different requirements are there for a reason, and not everyone needs to use every type of FS to give it a reason to exist...
kaba0 5y ago
I wouldn’t call xorg “being developed”. At most it is on life support.
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  That's just life in the end stage of a mature software project. It's pretty much feature-complete, it doesn't need active development. No point in changing things for the sake of change itself. The way software (or things in general) get old is by working well. The things with obvious issues get replaced quickly. Having stuck around for a long time is really not a sign something needs to be replaced.
  - horsawlarway 5y ago
    I disagree with you here. I find that Xorg is really starting to show cracks as new hardware, and especially new inputs, are becoming mainstream. In particular, I think Xorg does a crappy job with - Audio in general (but bluetooth specifically) - Gesture/touchpad input (some folks are trying to fund this still, but Wayland feels about as good as macOS by default - This was my "must have" feature that pushed me to wayland everywhere) - HiDPI support - it's ok if you have the same resolution on every screen. If you're mixing resolutions, wayland is MILES better. Even XWayland is bad here - this is just truly a limitation of XOrg. - Privacy. This one is a mixed blessing. XOrg lets apps do a lot of things to other apps. This is nice in some ways, because things like screen-recorders work easily and without permissions. But problematic because it means any app can quietly be a screen recorder. --- Xorg still wins in terms of overall compatibility, and in user customization. But I think it's pretty clear from the statements from the Xorg & Wayland teams that Xorg is not just "mature" - it's in the process of being slowly replaced with system that most of them feel is better. I think the more likely scenario is that you are not using the features that really make a distinction (which is a-ok!). In that case stick with what works for you. Xorg isn't going anywhere any time soon, and if your workflow is stable, you aren't missing the new stuff. But other people absolutely are, and it's not because Xorg is "finished" - it's because it's broken and no longer getting the level of support it used to, that's mostly going to Wayland now (and it REALLY shows, if you use it for a while).
3np 5y ago
The two major points from my perspective would be security (like restricting read-access to the clipboard and input devices) and multi-DPI (like multihead with a 1080p laptop and a 4K monitor - seems practically impossible to get right under X). EDIT: But as always, if you're happy with what you've got, indeed why should you switch? I really don't get this idea of there being "the one-size-fits-all" and the urge to tell others what to do. A major point of Linux is your freedom to do things your way. OP is just telling others (who may have older now no longer relevant experiences) how much things have changed. No need to get defensive.
gspr 5y ago
> After 10 years I still don't understand why I should switch away from X11. It is mature and is still being developed (latest xorg-server release is from January 2022). It does what I need. The problem is you can't expect X11 to keep up going forward. Developers are not interested in working on a huge and clunky legacy system.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mirconoft 5y ago
  I challenge you to subscribe to the X.Org mailing lists and come back in a month with the same take.
  - gspr 5y ago
    The xorg-devel list, which has had all of 33 messages posted to it so far this year, you mean?
develatio 5y ago
Just one argument that is hitting me every day: X11 is still missing HDR after all the years it's been around.
Certhas 5y ago
I have a Laptop with touchscreen and Hi-DPI. Firefox for Wayland worked perfectly out of the box. Without Wayland I couldn't get a config that did the right thing. I used to use Mint, but not having Wayland is now a showstopper on my new hardware.
- danuker 5y ago
  What examples do you have of hardware not working on Wayland?
  - necovek 5y ago
    They might have used one too many negations, but they had hardware "not working without Wayland".
    - danuker 5y ago
      They said they used to use Mint, implying Mint doesn't have Wayland. But that is software not hardware. Re-reading, I suspect the new hardware with high-DPI requires Wayland, because X11 has poor support for high-DPI (implying Wayland supports it better).
  - Certhas 5y ago
    Sorry for the awkward phrasing, what I meant was: Mint (specifically Cinnamon) doesn't have Wayland support. Not having Wayland means it doesn't work well on my new hardware. Not working on my new hardware is a showstopper. Thus I am no longer using Mint.
franga2000 5y ago
From my perspective both btrfs and wayland have significant benefits: proper touch support on wayland and multi-disk filesystems + snapshots on btrfs. It's all about the use case.
OJFord 5y ago
I resisted it, just because of having some X configuration, knowing some absolute basics about it, etc. But I decided to take the plunge in setting up a new laptop, and I wish I'd done it sooner. It's a lot nicer to configure (and especially to test changes in configuration in) sway than X. I don't know what I was worried about really, I should at least have looked into it - the whole thing has been easier so far than any single change I made to my old configuration (keybindings, modmap, etc.).
mijoharas 5y ago
For me, the feature was adaptive dpi scaling done correctly. I have a 4k laptop monitor and some 1080p screens that it connects to, and my solution on X was just to have everything at 1.5 scaling so it was just slightly off on both monitors. After switching that, and then seeing beautiful crisp fonts everywhere has meant that I haven't even considered going back to X, although I had to uninstall the zoom desktop app in order to screenshare (which works through the web version on chrome). I jumped pretty early, and almost every problem I had has been sorted out now, so it's just a better experience for me now. (also, screenshots work fine, it's just screensharing on certain old apps that's a problem).
- wing-_-nuts 5y ago
  Funny you should mention fractional scaling. I use gnome on wayland and enabling fractional scaling has a warning that it's really not recommended. Part of me wonders if this was simply a carry over from gnome on xorg, but I've mostly just made text larger and use a zoom extension in the browser.
  - marwis 5y ago
    Unless something changed Wayland does not support native fractional scaling and instead renders at nearest higher integer scale then does bitmap scaling down giving blurry output (compared to native fractional scaling as in Windows).
    - fsh 5y ago
      This is incorrect. I use fractional scaling in Gnome Wayland for my 4K monitor. The native Wayland software (Firefox, all the Gnome stuff,...) scales perfectly. Only XWayland applications are somewhat blurry.
      - marwis 5y ago
        Interesting. I gave up on Gnome/Linux long time ago but was watching a relevant wayland bug [0] in the hopes it will be fixed one day but it seems to be still open. Maybe I've been watching a wrong bug? [0] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/34 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/i... Update: I can still see open bugs such as https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1135 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1135. Are they outdated?
PausGreat 5y ago
Wayland has increased security. https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-securi... https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/guides/linux-hardening.html#gui-isolation https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/guides/linux-harden...

fsflover 5y ago

> why I should switch away from X11 Security: https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2011/04/23/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2011/04/23/linux-security-c....

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
In the vanishingly unlikely case that that matters, you can just run things in Xephyr. You can even use firejail to automate it, which is probably a good idea anyways if you're running malicious code on your machine.
- fsflover 5y ago
  I prefer running Qubes OS, but Xephyr is of course also a possibility.

filmor 5y ago

I started using it (about 4 or 5 years ago, I think) mostly because I really don't like tearing. I never got a completely tearing-free Xorg setup working for me.

mehdix 5y ago
Now that you mentioned tearing, I noticed that I can't even remember when was the last time I saw one. Before switching to Wayland/GNOME and then Wayland/Sway there was a dark era where I was fighting/struggling to keep a tearing-free video experience and crazy config to keep my keyboard layout in-sync when switching desktops/windows etc. Really glad that there is another option on the table.
lewispollard 5y ago
Fwiw, I have zero tearing on KDE Plasma+Nvidia on X11 with VSync enabled.

tlamponi 5y ago

xwayland is still being actively developed, xserver is in maintenance mode, which isn't a bad thing, especially for such an old, somewhat mature tech, but being actively developed is something else in my understanding. And one just cannot do away its architectural problems, which was the reason for a "from scratch with (some) hindsight" approach in the first place, under which new approaches like Wayland and mir got developed. > It does what I need. If the features of neither of those fit your use cases: great, be happy and keep using what works for you. But I, for one, like to have no tearing anymore, no random apps just stealing my keyboard input or clipboard content, having a more efficient way to operate on (frame) buffers, having active development for new tech features like HDR and that all while still running xwayland for 100% x11 compat; you cannot do the reverse, at least while not also getting the same features. So, I really like wayland as it gives people the possibility for better security/sandboxing and new features while I can just run x11 apps fine. > From my perspective, Wayland is like btrfs The same with btrfs, as RAID0/1/10 its just nice and stable since forever, its architecture is seemingly just a bad fit for RAID5/6, the single possible problematic part since a while, CoW and rebalancing are really nice to have on a server with important data. Multiple FS catering to different requirements are there for a reason, and not everyone needs to use every type of FS to give it a reason to exist...

kaba0 5y ago

I wouldn’t call xorg “being developed”. At most it is on life support.

marginalia_nu 5y ago
That's just life in the end stage of a mature software project. It's pretty much feature-complete, it doesn't need active development. No point in changing things for the sake of change itself. The way software (or things in general) get old is by working well. The things with obvious issues get replaced quickly. Having stuck around for a long time is really not a sign something needs to be replaced.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  I disagree with you here. I find that Xorg is really starting to show cracks as new hardware, and especially new inputs, are becoming mainstream. In particular, I think Xorg does a crappy job with - Audio in general (but bluetooth specifically) - Gesture/touchpad input (some folks are trying to fund this still, but Wayland feels about as good as macOS by default - This was my "must have" feature that pushed me to wayland everywhere) - HiDPI support - it's ok if you have the same resolution on every screen. If you're mixing resolutions, wayland is MILES better. Even XWayland is bad here - this is just truly a limitation of XOrg. - Privacy. This one is a mixed blessing. XOrg lets apps do a lot of things to other apps. This is nice in some ways, because things like screen-recorders work easily and without permissions. But problematic because it means any app can quietly be a screen recorder. --- Xorg still wins in terms of overall compatibility, and in user customization. But I think it's pretty clear from the statements from the Xorg & Wayland teams that Xorg is not just "mature" - it's in the process of being slowly replaced with system that most of them feel is better. I think the more likely scenario is that you are not using the features that really make a distinction (which is a-ok!). In that case stick with what works for you. Xorg isn't going anywhere any time soon, and if your workflow is stable, you aren't missing the new stuff. But other people absolutely are, and it's not because Xorg is "finished" - it's because it's broken and no longer getting the level of support it used to, that's mostly going to Wayland now (and it REALLY shows, if you use it for a while).

3np 5y ago

The two major points from my perspective would be security (like restricting read-access to the clipboard and input devices) and multi-DPI (like multihead with a 1080p laptop and a 4K monitor - seems practically impossible to get right under X). EDIT: But as always, if you're happy with what you've got, indeed why should you switch? I really don't get this idea of there being "the one-size-fits-all" and the urge to tell others what to do. A major point of Linux is your freedom to do things your way. OP is just telling others (who may have older now no longer relevant experiences) how much things have changed. No need to get defensive.

gspr 5y ago

> After 10 years I still don't understand why I should switch away from X11. It is mature and is still being developed (latest xorg-server release is from January 2022). It does what I need. The problem is you can't expect X11 to keep up going forward. Developers are not interested in working on a huge and clunky legacy system.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mirconoft 5y ago
I challenge you to subscribe to the X.Org mailing lists and come back in a month with the same take.
- gspr 5y ago
  The xorg-devel list, which has had all of 33 messages posted to it so far this year, you mean?

develatio 5y ago

Just one argument that is hitting me every day: X11 is still missing HDR after all the years it's been around.

Certhas 5y ago

I have a Laptop with touchscreen and Hi-DPI. Firefox for Wayland worked perfectly out of the box. Without Wayland I couldn't get a config that did the right thing. I used to use Mint, but not having Wayland is now a showstopper on my new hardware.

danuker 5y ago
What examples do you have of hardware not working on Wayland?
- necovek 5y ago
  They might have used one too many negations, but they had hardware "not working without Wayland".
  - danuker 5y ago
    They said they used to use Mint, implying Mint doesn't have Wayland. But that is software not hardware. Re-reading, I suspect the new hardware with high-DPI requires Wayland, because X11 has poor support for high-DPI (implying Wayland supports it better).
- Certhas 5y ago
  Sorry for the awkward phrasing, what I meant was: Mint (specifically Cinnamon) doesn't have Wayland support. Not having Wayland means it doesn't work well on my new hardware. Not working on my new hardware is a showstopper. Thus I am no longer using Mint.

franga2000 5y ago

From my perspective both btrfs and wayland have significant benefits: proper touch support on wayland and multi-disk filesystems + snapshots on btrfs. It's all about the use case.

OJFord 5y ago

I resisted it, just because of having some X configuration, knowing some absolute basics about it, etc. But I decided to take the plunge in setting up a new laptop, and I wish I'd done it sooner. It's a lot nicer to configure (and especially to test changes in configuration in) sway than X. I don't know what I was worried about really, I should at least have looked into it - the whole thing has been easier so far than any single change I made to my old configuration (keybindings, modmap, etc.).

mijoharas 5y ago

For me, the feature was adaptive dpi scaling done correctly. I have a 4k laptop monitor and some 1080p screens that it connects to, and my solution on X was just to have everything at 1.5 scaling so it was just slightly off on both monitors. After switching that, and then seeing beautiful crisp fonts everywhere has meant that I haven't even considered going back to X, although I had to uninstall the zoom desktop app in order to screenshare (which works through the web version on chrome). I jumped pretty early, and almost every problem I had has been sorted out now, so it's just a better experience for me now. (also, screenshots work fine, it's just screensharing on certain old apps that's a problem).

wing-_-nuts 5y ago
Funny you should mention fractional scaling. I use gnome on wayland and enabling fractional scaling has a warning that it's really not recommended. Part of me wonders if this was simply a carry over from gnome on xorg, but I've mostly just made text larger and use a zoom extension in the browser.
- marwis 5y ago
  Unless something changed Wayland does not support native fractional scaling and instead renders at nearest higher integer scale then does bitmap scaling down giving blurry output (compared to native fractional scaling as in Windows).
  - fsh 5y ago
    This is incorrect. I use fractional scaling in Gnome Wayland for my 4K monitor. The native Wayland software (Firefox, all the Gnome stuff,...) scales perfectly. Only XWayland applications are somewhat blurry.
    - marwis 5y ago
      Interesting. I gave up on Gnome/Linux long time ago but was watching a relevant wayland bug [0] in the hopes it will be fixed one day but it seems to be still open. Maybe I've been watching a wrong bug? [0] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/34 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/i... Update: I can still see open bugs such as https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1135 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1135. Are they outdated?

PausGreat 5y ago

Wayland has increased security. https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-securi... https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/guides/linux-hardening.html#gui-isolation https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/guides/linux-harden...