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Propaganda. Wayland has usability issues they've yet to fix after 10 years. and GNOME is sadly a DE that's just javascript. The Linux Desktop deserves better t

Propaganda. Wayland has usability issues they've yet to fix after 10 years. and GNOME is sadly a DE that's just javascript. The Linux Desktop deserves better than GNOME, and sadly KDE is the one that's gotten massively improved in the last 10 years.

oxplot 5y ago
> Propaganda You just accused me of writing up "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view".
- semi-extrinsic 5y ago
  Except from the "political" part of the definition, which everyone understands from the current context that this does not apply, what part do you disagree with? You are saying "everything works amazingly well". Others are reporting "simple things don't work, sometimes it just segfaults". Of course those other people can perceive your post as a form of propaganda. I have never used Wayland (I don't have a good reason to try it), so I don't know whether you or GP is correct. But there is obviously a possibility that GP is correct. You could even both be correct, if there are hardware-related bugs that you just happen to not experience.
  - fivelessminutes 5y ago
    Even a little experience with it would raise the chance the three paras you wrote on the topic might be worth reading.
Lio 5y ago
Would you mind saying what those usability issues are? Sometimes it's very useful to flag these things up so that they can either be acknowledged or fixed. Sometimes, if you're lucky, they actually have been solved since the last time you checked.
- bmn__ 5y ago
  Lio, this naivety, that is to say, the supposition of cooperation on behalf of the Gnome developers, hurts me to read. ;_; Gnome does not function like other free software projects. They do not actually listen to their users, this is the root of so so many problems with the software suite, they just do what is in their own interest.
fivelessminutes 5y ago
When did you last try it? Nobody can factor in 'usability issues' into their considerations, since one person's 'issue' may not matter to another. From my perspective it has been working well for years, and the alternative stacks all appear to be dying off since Ubuntu has also blessed it.
kaba0 5y ago
Did you just label your comment with the first word? Thanks! Gnome is not just javascript, it uses js as a scripting engine similarly to how AAA games use C#/Lua.
szanni 5y ago
> Propaganda. Wayland has usability issues they've yet to fix after 10 years. This. Sadly. I have tried switching numerous times. The problem for me is libinput which seems to suffer from the "we know better" syndrome that seems to have become more prevalent in recent years on Linux. The author even openly states so in the FAQ [0]. Certain features will NEVER be implemented, because you are wrong to want them. Looks like Apple to me. On X I luckily still have synaptics which provides the knobs I need. Aside from that Wayland still randomly crashes. [0] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/faqs.html#can-you-add-a-configuration-option-for-feature https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/faqs.htm...
- franga2000 5y ago
  Yeah the libinput team's insistence on "your use case is invalid" and the wayland team's classic "this is a job for the compositor" are making the next generation of linux desktops more locked down than iOS for regular users. Pushing so much responsibility onto compositors means we'll never get even close to the variety of DEs that we had before. Even the two biggest DEs don't have feature parity with X11 despite owning their compositors.
sph 5y ago
> The Linux Desktop deserves better than GNOME Speak for yourself. I want the macOS lite experience on Linux, not the Windows lite one, thank you very much. GNOME at least tries to have a cohesive and consistent design, instead of the whole kitchen sink approach of Windows and KDE. To be fair I have a great deal of appreciation and respect for KDE, but its users are quick to shit on GNOME whenever they can. Nobody is forcing it on you.
- jahlove 5y ago
  > Nobody is forcing it on you. Funny, my company actually is forcing me to use Gnome once we migrate to CentOS 8. Something about how RHEL is no longer supporting other desktop managers and it's too difficult to harden other ones. I am a Mate user and am not pleased.
- bmn__ 5y ago
  > Nobody is forcing it on you. But is that really the case? </TIK> Gnome/Gtk developers have sabotaged integration efforts since many years. The negative attitude against their products does not come à propos nothing. It is deserved as it follows naturally from their anti-user and anti-cooperative behaviour.
  - sph 5y ago
    Quit calling it anti user. Am I not a user, or I do not count as much as other Linux users because I like GNOME? There is absolutely nothing wrong in a DE wanting to go their own way instead of supporting any type of weird crazy configuration users might ask for. I want an opinionated desktop environment, I don't go complain to KDE devs that they should get rid of menus and adopt a headerbar because I dislike menus. Yet the opposite happens every time. GNOME is exploring a UI paradigm different from any other else, and some really dislike them because of it. How dare they, the hubris of these developers!
    - bmn__ 5y ago
      Quit playing a victim and misdirecting/mischaracterising the points I wrote about. This isn't about "exploring a UI paradigm", this is about users of the other DEs actually being treated badly by the Gnome/Gtk developers. The criticism will continue until they adopt the mindset that is prevalent in the F/OSS community and stop offloading their externalities, so that a user's choice of an opinionated DE does not negatively affect another user's choice of a configurable DE.
gitgud 5y ago
> and GNOME is sadly a DE that's just javascript. Why is that sad? It's just a scripting engine... > and sadly KDE is the one that's gotten massively improved in the last 10 years. Why is that sad? Sounds like a good thing... I'm starting to think your definition of "sadly" is different to mine...

oxplot 5y ago

> Propaganda You just accused me of writing up "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view".

semi-extrinsic 5y ago
Except from the "political" part of the definition, which everyone understands from the current context that this does not apply, what part do you disagree with? You are saying "everything works amazingly well". Others are reporting "simple things don't work, sometimes it just segfaults". Of course those other people can perceive your post as a form of propaganda. I have never used Wayland (I don't have a good reason to try it), so I don't know whether you or GP is correct. But there is obviously a possibility that GP is correct. You could even both be correct, if there are hardware-related bugs that you just happen to not experience.
- fivelessminutes 5y ago
  Even a little experience with it would raise the chance the three paras you wrote on the topic might be worth reading.

Lio 5y ago

Would you mind saying what those usability issues are? Sometimes it's very useful to flag these things up so that they can either be acknowledged or fixed. Sometimes, if you're lucky, they actually have been solved since the last time you checked.

bmn__ 5y ago
Lio, this naivety, that is to say, the supposition of cooperation on behalf of the Gnome developers, hurts me to read. ;_; Gnome does not function like other free software projects. They do not actually listen to their users, this is the root of so so many problems with the software suite, they just do what is in their own interest.

fivelessminutes 5y ago

When did you last try it? Nobody can factor in 'usability issues' into their considerations, since one person's 'issue' may not matter to another. From my perspective it has been working well for years, and the alternative stacks all appear to be dying off since Ubuntu has also blessed it.

kaba0 5y ago

Did you just label your comment with the first word? Thanks! Gnome is not just javascript, it uses js as a scripting engine similarly to how AAA games use C#/Lua.

szanni 5y ago

> Propaganda. Wayland has usability issues they've yet to fix after 10 years. This. Sadly. I have tried switching numerous times. The problem for me is libinput which seems to suffer from the "we know better" syndrome that seems to have become more prevalent in recent years on Linux. The author even openly states so in the FAQ [0]. Certain features will NEVER be implemented, because you are wrong to want them. Looks like Apple to me. On X I luckily still have synaptics which provides the knobs I need. Aside from that Wayland still randomly crashes. [0] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/faqs.html#can-you-add-a-configuration-option-for-feature https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/faqs.htm...

franga2000 5y ago
Yeah the libinput team's insistence on "your use case is invalid" and the wayland team's classic "this is a job for the compositor" are making the next generation of linux desktops more locked down than iOS for regular users. Pushing so much responsibility onto compositors means we'll never get even close to the variety of DEs that we had before. Even the two biggest DEs don't have feature parity with X11 despite owning their compositors.

sph 5y ago

> The Linux Desktop deserves better than GNOME Speak for yourself. I want the macOS lite experience on Linux, not the Windows lite one, thank you very much. GNOME at least tries to have a cohesive and consistent design, instead of the whole kitchen sink approach of Windows and KDE. To be fair I have a great deal of appreciation and respect for KDE, but its users are quick to shit on GNOME whenever they can. Nobody is forcing it on you.

jahlove 5y ago
> Nobody is forcing it on you. Funny, my company actually is forcing me to use Gnome once we migrate to CentOS 8. Something about how RHEL is no longer supporting other desktop managers and it's too difficult to harden other ones. I am a Mate user and am not pleased.
bmn__ 5y ago
> Nobody is forcing it on you. But is that really the case? </TIK> Gnome/Gtk developers have sabotaged integration efforts since many years. The negative attitude against their products does not come à propos nothing. It is deserved as it follows naturally from their anti-user and anti-cooperative behaviour.
- sph 5y ago
  Quit calling it anti user. Am I not a user, or I do not count as much as other Linux users because I like GNOME? There is absolutely nothing wrong in a DE wanting to go their own way instead of supporting any type of weird crazy configuration users might ask for. I want an opinionated desktop environment, I don't go complain to KDE devs that they should get rid of menus and adopt a headerbar because I dislike menus. Yet the opposite happens every time. GNOME is exploring a UI paradigm different from any other else, and some really dislike them because of it. How dare they, the hubris of these developers!
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    Quit playing a victim and misdirecting/mischaracterising the points I wrote about. This isn't about "exploring a UI paradigm", this is about users of the other DEs actually being treated badly by the Gnome/Gtk developers. The criticism will continue until they adopt the mindset that is prevalent in the F/OSS community and stop offloading their externalities, so that a user's choice of an opinionated DE does not negatively affect another user's choice of a configurable DE.

gitgud 5y ago

> and GNOME is sadly a DE that's just javascript. Why is that sad? It's just a scripting engine... > and sadly KDE is the one that's gotten massively improved in the last 10 years. Why is that sad? Sounds like a good thing... I'm starting to think your definition of "sadly" is different to mine...