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> if an user has to go through all that many trouble and risks to preform such simple and (rare but) routine task, this design is bad You're assuming an Apple

by oxplot 5y ago

> if an user has to go through all that many trouble and risks to preform such simple and (rare but) routine task, this design is bad You're assuming an Apple user is meant to service their own product. That's not the case as far as Apple is concerned. You have an issue, you drop by the Apple store (or send your device in) and they repair it for you. Determining good-ness or bad-ness of a design has to take into account the intended usage and design goals. Whether a customer should be able to repair their device easily/at all, is a whole separate topic. Apple doesn't think so and their design decisions have clearly reflected that over the decades. As far as that goes, whether the end user has to dig through 20 layers of hardware before cleaning a fan is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether Apple employees who'll be fixing/cleaning these devices will be wasting too much time for the most frequent support requests. That's what Apple should be (and most certainly is) optimizing for. Also note that the majority of the end users will not have the time nor the interest to repair their own devices, especially when in most cases, their repair is covered under warranty. A lot of people with the technical skills far more than needed to to the self repair fall into this category as well. I've been modding and hacking expensive hardware for decades mostly for fun, but also for practical reasons, in order to add to/modify behavior of the hardware. Even I have little interest to repair my Apple products I have paid premium dollars on. I increasingly value where I spend my time and I let Apple do my laundry for me. I must also mention (given the high degree of Apple/Google/Facebook/... bashing on HN) that Apple is among the better, if not the best, manufacturers in terms of warranty service and support (at least where I live). I have requested warranty services for dozens of products and not once have had to "prove" my case, or so much as try to convince Apple of an issue. Compared to every other worse interaction with other brands, I will continue to pay top dollars for Apple products even at the cost of whatever the hot Apple knocking topic of the day is. Having said that, there are of course tools that I need full access and repairability as a given and I never go with Apple in those cases.

Osiris 5y ago
He's not talking about repair. He's talking about cleaning. Cleaning should not require an Apple certified technician.
- oxplot 5y ago
  Cleaning becomes repair if it's affecting your machine's performance. If it's not affecting performance, why would one care if the inside of their machine that they can't see nor access, is dusty or not? EDIT: OK, let me help you arrive at the destination: your machine gets dusty and slow, just as if its electronics was failing. You take it to Apple and they fix it under warranty or ask for some $$ if it's out of warranty (given that they have to spend time doing it, time that you would be spending yourself, whether it's easy or hard to open up the machine). Calling it cleaning or repairing is splitting hairs. If it's degrading performance, it's a problem, if it's not, it's cosmetics. BTW, all this fuss with cleaning fans — no one I know opens up their stuff and clean the fans until the device malfunctions. You are in the small small minority and no company, including Apple optimized for your habits.
  - cormacrelf 5y ago
    You should be able to avoid having your machine’s performance degrade simply by its inevitable coexistence with dust. If you want your worldview to make sense, please invent a fan and computer interior that does not collect dust.
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      Yeah, but with most tower-style computers and even most Apple laptops it's easy to clean after the inevitable coexistence with dust: once a year, remove the screws and the bottom (or in case of a tower, side) lid, apply a vacuum cleaner, close it up again and that's it. The nastiest opponent to cleaning that Apple sells is the iMac lineup after the Late 2012 iMac. The iMacs before had their display glass attached to the frame with magnets, with 2012 Apple switched to adhesive... which makes servicing these really painful because it is easy to break that glass and pretty difficult to separate the front glass from the panel. If you have cats, dogs or other beings that shed fur though around you, I'd recommend once every six months.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    The key bit is "their machine that they can't see nor access". If I could easily clean out my macbook's fans, I would, for regular maintenance, so it doesn't get to that point. It feeling like I'm risking everything but simply opening it up increases the liklihood that it will get to the point of needing repair.
nirui 5y ago
> You're assuming an Apple user is meant to service their own product. That's not the case as far as Apple is concerned. > Determining good-ness or bad-ness of a design has to take into account the intended usage and design goals. Whether a customer should be able to repair their device easily/at all, is a whole separate topic I was just talking about the product design itself, did not touch the self-repairability issue at all. There are certain expectations a device should be providing, been Apple does not grant them the exception. No, Apple is not a special company that produce magic rainbow out of their computer/phones, it's a company that produce digital product and service, just like those in Shenzhen, Apple is not special. They're expensive, they're a monopoly, and they hire some good people, but they're not special, keep this in mind. I would complained the same thing if Dell or Lenovo designed their wind system like that. Fun fact, I kind like how Dell designed their OptiPlex MFF system, at least I don't have risk my life trying to clean them. But of course that computer, not a Mac. But with all that said, I'm not here to stop you. If you want one (because it look beautiful I guess???), then treat yourself. I'm just here to complain what I saw as a consumer.
- oxplot 5y ago
  > If you want one (because it look beautiful I guess???) Why would you say this, after I explained in length the warranty advantages? Did you not read that part or do you disagree with it?

by oxplot 5y ago

Osiris 5y ago

He's not talking about repair. He's talking about cleaning. Cleaning should not require an Apple certified technician.

oxplot 5y ago
Cleaning becomes repair if it's affecting your machine's performance. If it's not affecting performance, why would one care if the inside of their machine that they can't see nor access, is dusty or not? EDIT: OK, let me help you arrive at the destination: your machine gets dusty and slow, just as if its electronics was failing. You take it to Apple and they fix it under warranty or ask for some $$ if it's out of warranty (given that they have to spend time doing it, time that you would be spending yourself, whether it's easy or hard to open up the machine). Calling it cleaning or repairing is splitting hairs. If it's degrading performance, it's a problem, if it's not, it's cosmetics. BTW, all this fuss with cleaning fans — no one I know opens up their stuff and clean the fans until the device malfunctions. You are in the small small minority and no company, including Apple optimized for your habits.
- cormacrelf 5y ago
  You should be able to avoid having your machine’s performance degrade simply by its inevitable coexistence with dust. If you want your worldview to make sense, please invent a fan and computer interior that does not collect dust.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    Yeah, but with most tower-style computers and even most Apple laptops it's easy to clean after the inevitable coexistence with dust: once a year, remove the screws and the bottom (or in case of a tower, side) lid, apply a vacuum cleaner, close it up again and that's it. The nastiest opponent to cleaning that Apple sells is the iMac lineup after the Late 2012 iMac. The iMacs before had their display glass attached to the frame with magnets, with 2012 Apple switched to adhesive... which makes servicing these really painful because it is easy to break that glass and pretty difficult to separate the front glass from the panel. If you have cats, dogs or other beings that shed fur though around you, I'd recommend once every six months.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  The key bit is "their machine that they can't see nor access". If I could easily clean out my macbook's fans, I would, for regular maintenance, so it doesn't get to that point. It feeling like I'm risking everything but simply opening it up increases the liklihood that it will get to the point of needing repair.

nirui 5y ago

> You're assuming an Apple user is meant to service their own product. That's not the case as far as Apple is concerned. > Determining good-ness or bad-ness of a design has to take into account the intended usage and design goals. Whether a customer should be able to repair their device easily/at all, is a whole separate topic I was just talking about the product design itself, did not touch the self-repairability issue at all. There are certain expectations a device should be providing, been Apple does not grant them the exception. No, Apple is not a special company that produce magic rainbow out of their computer/phones, it's a company that produce digital product and service, just like those in Shenzhen, Apple is not special. They're expensive, they're a monopoly, and they hire some good people, but they're not special, keep this in mind. I would complained the same thing if Dell or Lenovo designed their wind system like that. Fun fact, I kind like how Dell designed their OptiPlex MFF system, at least I don't have risk my life trying to clean them. But of course that computer, not a Mac. But with all that said, I'm not here to stop you. If you want one (because it look beautiful I guess???), then treat yourself. I'm just here to complain what I saw as a consumer.

oxplot 5y ago
> If you want one (because it look beautiful I guess???) Why would you say this, after I explained in length the warranty advantages? Did you not read that part or do you disagree with it?