16 ms·

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggli

by beloch 5y ago

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human typewriter to medical prescription from a meth-addicted doctor. I tried to grade everything fairly and provide feedback about mistakes so students could learn. My fellow TA's complained to the department that we were well over the hours we were supposed to be spending by a factor of at least 3. We were told to do less. Just to be clear, I wasn't worried about how much I was being paid. The problem was that I had my own research and coursework to do. We simply needed more TA's in that course due to the way lab assignments were designed. The prof teaching the course was apologetic and furnished me with the above quote. This is teaching at a research focused university in a nutshell. There is no shortage of people who want to do a good job teaching, but the system is designed to force them to spend their time on other things. Why is an institution of higher learning so hostile to those who want to put an honest effort into teaching? Just as nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students, no research focused university ranks well if they aren't churning out a lot of papers. Teaching competes with that priority. If we want better educational outcomes for students, we need to do a better job of aligning the incentives governing universities with that goal.

netizen-936824 5y ago
I don't think Nobel prizes and happy students are mutually exclusive
- generativenoise 5y ago
  I don't read it at mutually exclusive, more that pleasing students is not going to advance your research. So more of a witty, be mindful about what you are trying to achieve, what the preconditions actually are and direct effort appropriately.
  - jxramos 5y ago
    Yep, in short you get good at what you do.
- whoisburbansky 5y ago
  They kind of are when you consider that the opportunity cost of one might be the other?
CodeBrad 5y ago
Pretty similar to my experience TA'ing at a researched focused school. My first semester teaching a lab I was told "No one is remembered for being a good TA" and encouraged to do the absolute bare minimum to get paid so that I could focus on research.
- hinkley 5y ago
  Some people are remembered for being a bad one, though.
- lambdasquirrel 5y ago
  ;_; I remember my good TAs...
  - japanuspus 5y ago
    This. It might be true that nobody _in academia_ remembers a good TA, but I would claim that the TA-student relationship is one of the best ways to create a network across classes at uni. Personally I have used connections to former TA's and students in industry on multiple occasions.
Forgeties79 5y ago
It is so refreshing to see this take. I was on a path to be a history Ph.D candidate - I wanted to teach, and archive diving is basically my own personal drug. The problem is it’s “publish or perish,” as we all know. My higher priority, i.e. teaching, was essentially an obstacle. You know how I know that? My own advisor and other department members told me not to get my doctorate (after writing a 60 page thesis mind you, which I’m still a tad bitter about given how this turns out haha). They said no program wants to hear how I want to teach and that absolutely no one will hire me, then I won’t get published, and I’ll end up (if I’m lucky!) teaching at an expensive boarding school in a place I don’t get to choose. I’m not saying I would’ve gotten into even a decent program. Hell I may have been a mediocre at best teacher. But it never felt right to me that teaching at colleges isn’t a viable career path. It was so odd to learn that my dream was simply not allowed, especially when it seemed so reasonable.
- gjs278 5y ago
- wjossey 5y ago
  Dropped out of a comp sci PhD program after a year for this exact same reason. Will go get my masters some day so I can teach in retirement, but was saddened teaching in higher ed couldn’t be the end game.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I had an advisor in undergrad that tried to convince me to teach. Im glad I didn't listen to him. I hate my current job, but I'm certain I would have hated that more.
- pokepim 5y ago
  History PhD candidate at Hacker News? I’m really curious, do you like programming/tech as a hobby or did you take another path in the end?
  - Forgeties79 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fakethenews2022 5y ago
UC Berkeley CS has teaching professors who no longer do research and solely teach. They introduced this well after I graduated but I did take classes with some professors who became teaching professors. They were research professors when I took them. I found the experienced professors competent even if some were uninspired. On the other hand, I generally had negative experiences with the graduate assistants and new professors. The graduate students and new professors didn't know the material as well and didn't have much experience teaching. The older professors mostly knew the material much better and had an established process. I had Stuart Russell, Raimund Seidel, Randy Katz, John Wawryznek, and others.
- smugma 5y ago
  Weren’t Mike Clancy (I think he only had a bachelors) and Brian Harvey (I think he got a PhD but maybe in education) around when you were there? I took both their classes and I thought Clancy was there in the 70’s and Harvey maybe 80’s?
  - fakethenews2022 5y ago
    Brian Harvey was there but I don't remember taking any of his classes. I went in the 90s. I also had Ousterhout.
- fakethenews2022 5y ago
  My worst class by far was taught by a visiting professor who just did not give a damn and basically read from a textbook. He was gone after a semester. I suspect it was partly due to his horrid student reviews. I also had a math class taught by a well meaning fresh professor. It was on the fast Fourier transform and related techniques leading to it. Great topic choice but very awkwardly and confusingly taught. It is actually hugely relevant to video compression and decompression.
ghoshbishakh 5y ago
Couldn't agree more. I want to teach in a university. But I won't be able to even if I join one as a faculty.
jppope 5y ago
Super weird take IMO- I remember reading Feynman talk about how being able to teach was critical to being a great researcher. Similarly it seems that lots of faculty utilize the various experiences and perspectives of their graduate students to advance their own research. Teaching helps give them ideas so to speak.
- godelski 5y ago
  Being able to teach is very different from the troubles of grading. I do enjoy teaching. But grading is draining and extremely time consuming. The only way it isn't extremely time consuming is to do it in a half assed manner. Which is why that is likely so common. Honestly, being inside academia I think one of the big reasons for grade inflation is simply because the effort it takes to grade seriously (and other academic politics that couple with this create bad incentive structures where you aren't focused on teaching nor on research).
- smcl 5y ago
  You have misread the comment completely. The commenter isn't unhappy that they have to teach at all, in fact it appears that they are happy with that ("There is no shortage of people who want to do a good job teaching"). The issue is that they're forced to do far too much of it, and in this specific case grading hundreds of handwritten lab reports per week.
giantg2 5y ago
"Why is an institution of higher learning so hostile to those who want to put an honest effort into teaching?" It's all about the money.
Avicebron 5y ago
- dang 5y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here. We've already had to warn you about this once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28664085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28664085. I'm not going to ban you right now, but please stop doing this so we don't end up having to. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
Why do US universities use students as teaching assistants in the first place? If you study for a PhD in the UK then the academic and research work is what you are there for and all that you do. And that means you get it done in much less time.
- achileas 5y ago
  Cheap labor, takes the load off of professors when it comes to the gruntwork (grading, etc.) so they can focus on research, teaching, and grantwriting, and it's part of the apprenticeship of grad students (which is what grad school and postdocs are supposed to be), introducing them to the world of teaching. In my PhD program, post-quals you had to fully teach one intro class as part of your degree requirements.

by beloch 5y ago

netizen-936824 5y ago

I don't think Nobel prizes and happy students are mutually exclusive

generativenoise 5y ago
I don't read it at mutually exclusive, more that pleasing students is not going to advance your research. So more of a witty, be mindful about what you are trying to achieve, what the preconditions actually are and direct effort appropriately.
- jxramos 5y ago
  Yep, in short you get good at what you do.
whoisburbansky 5y ago
They kind of are when you consider that the opportunity cost of one might be the other?

CodeBrad 5y ago

Pretty similar to my experience TA'ing at a researched focused school. My first semester teaching a lab I was told "No one is remembered for being a good TA" and encouraged to do the absolute bare minimum to get paid so that I could focus on research.

hinkley 5y ago
Some people are remembered for being a bad one, though.
lambdasquirrel 5y ago
;_; I remember my good TAs...
- japanuspus 5y ago
  This. It might be true that nobody _in academia_ remembers a good TA, but I would claim that the TA-student relationship is one of the best ways to create a network across classes at uni. Personally I have used connections to former TA's and students in industry on multiple occasions.

Forgeties79 5y ago

It is so refreshing to see this take. I was on a path to be a history Ph.D candidate - I wanted to teach, and archive diving is basically my own personal drug. The problem is it’s “publish or perish,” as we all know. My higher priority, i.e. teaching, was essentially an obstacle. You know how I know that? My own advisor and other department members told me not to get my doctorate (after writing a 60 page thesis mind you, which I’m still a tad bitter about given how this turns out haha). They said no program wants to hear how I want to teach and that absolutely no one will hire me, then I won’t get published, and I’ll end up (if I’m lucky!) teaching at an expensive boarding school in a place I don’t get to choose. I’m not saying I would’ve gotten into even a decent program. Hell I may have been a mediocre at best teacher. But it never felt right to me that teaching at colleges isn’t a viable career path. It was so odd to learn that my dream was simply not allowed, especially when it seemed so reasonable.

gjs278 5y ago
wjossey 5y ago
Dropped out of a comp sci PhD program after a year for this exact same reason. Will go get my masters some day so I can teach in retirement, but was saddened teaching in higher ed couldn’t be the end game.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I had an advisor in undergrad that tried to convince me to teach. Im glad I didn't listen to him. I hate my current job, but I'm certain I would have hated that more.
pokepim 5y ago
History PhD candidate at Hacker News? I’m really curious, do you like programming/tech as a hobby or did you take another path in the end?
- Forgeties79 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fakethenews2022 5y ago

UC Berkeley CS has teaching professors who no longer do research and solely teach. They introduced this well after I graduated but I did take classes with some professors who became teaching professors. They were research professors when I took them. I found the experienced professors competent even if some were uninspired. On the other hand, I generally had negative experiences with the graduate assistants and new professors. The graduate students and new professors didn't know the material as well and didn't have much experience teaching. The older professors mostly knew the material much better and had an established process. I had Stuart Russell, Raimund Seidel, Randy Katz, John Wawryznek, and others.

smugma 5y ago
Weren’t Mike Clancy (I think he only had a bachelors) and Brian Harvey (I think he got a PhD but maybe in education) around when you were there? I took both their classes and I thought Clancy was there in the 70’s and Harvey maybe 80’s?
- fakethenews2022 5y ago
  Brian Harvey was there but I don't remember taking any of his classes. I went in the 90s. I also had Ousterhout.
fakethenews2022 5y ago
My worst class by far was taught by a visiting professor who just did not give a damn and basically read from a textbook. He was gone after a semester. I suspect it was partly due to his horrid student reviews. I also had a math class taught by a well meaning fresh professor. It was on the fast Fourier transform and related techniques leading to it. Great topic choice but very awkwardly and confusingly taught. It is actually hugely relevant to video compression and decompression.

ghoshbishakh 5y ago

Couldn't agree more. I want to teach in a university. But I won't be able to even if I join one as a faculty.

jppope 5y ago

Super weird take IMO- I remember reading Feynman talk about how being able to teach was critical to being a great researcher. Similarly it seems that lots of faculty utilize the various experiences and perspectives of their graduate students to advance their own research. Teaching helps give them ideas so to speak.

godelski 5y ago
Being able to teach is very different from the troubles of grading. I do enjoy teaching. But grading is draining and extremely time consuming. The only way it isn't extremely time consuming is to do it in a half assed manner. Which is why that is likely so common. Honestly, being inside academia I think one of the big reasons for grade inflation is simply because the effort it takes to grade seriously (and other academic politics that couple with this create bad incentive structures where you aren't focused on teaching nor on research).
smcl 5y ago
You have misread the comment completely. The commenter isn't unhappy that they have to teach at all, in fact it appears that they are happy with that ("There is no shortage of people who want to do a good job teaching"). The issue is that they're forced to do far too much of it, and in this specific case grading hundreds of handwritten lab reports per week.

giantg2 5y ago

"Why is an institution of higher learning so hostile to those who want to put an honest effort into teaching?" It's all about the money.

Avicebron 5y ago

dang 5y ago
Personal attacks will get you banned here. We've already had to warn you about this once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28664085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28664085. I'm not going to ban you right now, but please stop doing this so we don't end up having to. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

Why do US universities use students as teaching assistants in the first place? If you study for a PhD in the UK then the academic and research work is what you are there for and all that you do. And that means you get it done in much less time.

achileas 5y ago
Cheap labor, takes the load off of professors when it comes to the gruntwork (grading, etc.) so they can focus on research, teaching, and grantwriting, and it's part of the apprenticeship of grad students (which is what grad school and postdocs are supposed to be), introducing them to the world of teaching. In my PhD program, post-quals you had to fully teach one intro class as part of your degree requirements.