4 ms·

> the guarantees that your content is truly yours (no lock-in). Maybe I am a magician of some kind, but my content is always mine, regardless of the file type

> the guarantees that your content is truly yours (no lock-in). Maybe I am a magician of some kind, but my content is always mine, regardless of the file type I use. For the sake of argument, let's say I have a floppy disk with a Vizawrite file on it, that I typed 30 years ago. There is no lock-in. I still can use that file.

macintux 5y ago
There are at least two problems with proprietary file formats. First is the app lock-in, which perhaps hasn’t bitten you but not everyone is so fortunate, especially in a scenario the article describes, corporate environments where you can’t install arbitrary software onto the machine you use. The other problem is corruption. I haven’t experienced this in a few years, but it’s certainly not unheard-of for a binary data file to experience corruption; often the only way to recover it is to perform surgery on it, which not everyone will have the tools and skills to do. Plain text files are much safer in that regard.
- Torwald 5y ago
  The app lock-in doesn't make me lose access to my content. Many proprietary formats are supported by import/export in major apps. There are converter tools. Also, I do not need to switch apps. The problem with corruption is solved by backups. It's a solved problem.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    > The problem with corruption is solved by backups well, and checksums. otherwise you might not be aware of that bitrot. FEC would be ideal.
  - OtomotO 5y ago
    Yes, I can do all that, with a lot more effort, or just use plain text for content that doesn't need more and be happy with a simpler solution
- something98 5y ago
  This argument always sounds superficial to me. 1) You can have corruption in files of any type. Text is no more robust to random bit flips. Pick a file format and there are often tools that can isolate the corruption to a small portion to recover everything else. 2) The solution to lock-in is not "let's make everything text", but "let's have open file formats". Many types of data, especially for project-management-like tools, aren't particularly well suited as plain text (or a markdown format). So many extra unnecessary parsing/regex steps have to be jumped through for the program to use it, and the sanitizing functions now have to be moved from code to the user's brain to not break things. By all means, support open file formats and exporting functionality. But shoehorning -everything- into text sounds like some crazy mix of bikeshedding and worldbuilding. Why waste your time? Especially knowing MD will fall out of favor eventually, and a new format du jour will rise. What will you do then?
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    > Text is no more robust to random bit flips Erm, a single bitflip will ruin, at maximum, a single character, which probably has enough context around it to be easily manually repaired. Not so pretty much any compressed, encrypted or binary format... either a large chunk of it gets undecodable or the whole thing is lost.
    - something98 5y ago
      Not universally true. But, regardless, most files are not text.
      - OtomotO 5y ago
        > But, regardless, most files are not text Hence the initial post. (Are we running in circles now?)
        something98 5y ago
        I'm pointing out that everyone is comfortable with most files not being human-readable. And that it's a red herring to suggest that text is the longest-lived format. I'm sure my data could outlive text files if I "stored" it on granite blocks, but it's not very useful in that format. Same with plain text; it just isn't a very useful format.
tconfrey 5y ago
But can you get your data out of Vizawrite and into some other tool and edit it there? And will Vizawrite get ported onto all the environments you might want to work in? (eg does it have a mobile app?) The value of plain text with markup is that any of the tools @xenodium mentions above can work with data from any of the others. I use emacs/org to edit my data from BrainTool, I use Orgzly on the same file on my Android and its also part of my LogSeq digital knowledge garden.
- Torwald 5y ago
  I understand with text files you like the flexibility and independence you describe. You call that the value of plain text and I agree. However, that doesn't make me lose control over my content, if I don't use plain text files, which was my actual argument.

macintux 5y ago

There are at least two problems with proprietary file formats. First is the app lock-in, which perhaps hasn’t bitten you but not everyone is so fortunate, especially in a scenario the article describes, corporate environments where you can’t install arbitrary software onto the machine you use. The other problem is corruption. I haven’t experienced this in a few years, but it’s certainly not unheard-of for a binary data file to experience corruption; often the only way to recover it is to perform surgery on it, which not everyone will have the tools and skills to do. Plain text files are much safer in that regard.

Torwald 5y ago
The app lock-in doesn't make me lose access to my content. Many proprietary formats are supported by import/export in major apps. There are converter tools. Also, I do not need to switch apps. The problem with corruption is solved by backups. It's a solved problem.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  > The problem with corruption is solved by backups well, and checksums. otherwise you might not be aware of that bitrot. FEC would be ideal.
- OtomotO 5y ago
  Yes, I can do all that, with a lot more effort, or just use plain text for content that doesn't need more and be happy with a simpler solution
something98 5y ago
This argument always sounds superficial to me. 1) You can have corruption in files of any type. Text is no more robust to random bit flips. Pick a file format and there are often tools that can isolate the corruption to a small portion to recover everything else. 2) The solution to lock-in is not "let's make everything text", but "let's have open file formats". Many types of data, especially for project-management-like tools, aren't particularly well suited as plain text (or a markdown format). So many extra unnecessary parsing/regex steps have to be jumped through for the program to use it, and the sanitizing functions now have to be moved from code to the user's brain to not break things. By all means, support open file formats and exporting functionality. But shoehorning -everything- into text sounds like some crazy mix of bikeshedding and worldbuilding. Why waste your time? Especially knowing MD will fall out of favor eventually, and a new format du jour will rise. What will you do then?
- pmarreck 5y ago
  > Text is no more robust to random bit flips Erm, a single bitflip will ruin, at maximum, a single character, which probably has enough context around it to be easily manually repaired. Not so pretty much any compressed, encrypted or binary format... either a large chunk of it gets undecodable or the whole thing is lost.
  - something98 5y ago
    Not universally true. But, regardless, most files are not text.
    - OtomotO 5y ago
      > But, regardless, most files are not text Hence the initial post. (Are we running in circles now?)
      - something98 5y ago
        I'm pointing out that everyone is comfortable with most files not being human-readable. And that it's a red herring to suggest that text is the longest-lived format. I'm sure my data could outlive text files if I "stored" it on granite blocks, but it's not very useful in that format. Same with plain text; it just isn't a very useful format.

tconfrey 5y ago

But can you get your data out of Vizawrite and into some other tool and edit it there? And will Vizawrite get ported onto all the environments you might want to work in? (eg does it have a mobile app?) The value of plain text with markup is that any of the tools @xenodium mentions above can work with data from any of the others. I use emacs/org to edit my data from BrainTool, I use Orgzly on the same file on my Android and its also part of my LogSeq digital knowledge garden.

Torwald 5y ago
I understand with text files you like the flexibility and independence you describe. You call that the value of plain text and I agree. However, that doesn't make me lose control over my content, if I don't use plain text files, which was my actual argument.