16 ms·

At this stage, native Linux releases are becoming less and less likely because of Value's efforts to improve gaming on Linux, as paradoxical as that seems. Prot

At this stage, native Linux releases are becoming less and less likely because of Value's efforts to improve gaming on Linux, as paradoxical as that seems. Proton is getting better and better with each release, and in many cases, is providing better performance than running native code on Windows. Why bother with official Linux support when you can just check that your game runs via Proton and push the burden of support onto Valve and the Proton community?

shmerl 5y ago
I don't see why it has to become less likely for those who care about performance (which major games usually do). Translating DX12 or DX11 into Vulkan has performance overhead, even if you manage to run the game better than on Windows itself (for example Cyberpunk 2077 performs on Linux better than on Windows now). But native releases can perform even better. And it's probably not always the case that Windows games perform better on Linux through translation than on Windows. Besides, Wine has to play constant catch up to all kind of NIH stuff that MS will produce. Direct storage is the new one that doesn't have any translation implementation yet. So value of native releases won't disappear.
- jhasse 5y ago
  > for example Cyberpunk 2077 performs on Linux better than on Windows now Do you have a link? Everything I found suggest that it's the other way around, but Linux comes close.
  - shmerl 5y ago
    * https://twitter.com/killyourfm/status/1502338832053776385 https://twitter.com/killyourfm/status/1502338832053776385 * https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-amd-linux/1314431-radv-driver-adds-support-for-valve-s-new-vkd3d-proton-focused-vulkan-extension?p=1314565#post1314565 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-d... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1khMYMO5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1khMYMO5c The above is for AMD. And I saw people with Nvidia reporting it performing better on Linux as well.
- sbcd 5y ago
  I play elden ring on windows.. with dxvk/vkd3d dll because they fixed the massive stuttering issue that this console port had on PC. Even on windows this translation layer can give better performance.
modeless 5y ago
If Proton just becomes the "game runtime" for Linux, that's OK! It's still open source. There may come a time when Proton compatibility becomes as important or even more important than Windows compatibility for game developers. Not only might game developers start explicitly supporting Proton, they could even contribute fixes upstream, unlike with Windows. Ultimately if it becomes popular enough, Proton could execute the embrace, extend, extinguish strategy on Windows itself. We'll know it succeeded if one day Microsoft gives up NT kernel development in favor of shipping Linux/Proton, just the way they ultimately gave up on Trident and started shipping Blink/Chromium. Today Windows is a relatively small and shrinking percentage of Microsoft's revenue so maybe it's not out of the question in a decade or two.
- sph 5y ago
  I'd argue that Proton is better than native Linux support in the long term, hear me out. Linux userspace API has no promise of long term compatibility, and in fact there's a lot of churn, especially nowadays as we approach the Year of the Linux Desktop and technologies come and go as they're improved. The Windows API instead is known for its long term compatibility. Microsoft goes out of their way to ensure applications keep running a decade later, and using that as a base for gaming is a win-win, as developers can target two operating systems with one API, and gamers have more guarantees their game will still be playable on Ubuntu 2030 edition. The last few times I played native Linux games I had to fish for old and unsupported libssl and libjpeg libraries that my distribution doesn't ship anymore. I can blame the port, but nowadays I just try the Proton version first.
  - shmerl 5y ago
    It's not about Windows long term support, it's about Wine long term support (which is much better than Windows own). So I agree with your point that long term Wine offers better support than Linux native ABIs. I doubt Windows ABIs are better than Linux native ones on their own long term wise (i.e. without Wine). That said, it would be cool for someone to develop Wine-like wrapping of historic Linux ABIs into modern ones so you could have the same preservation effect. There was for example such project for older SDL over new one.
qudat 5y ago
I’ve seen game devs advertise that their game works natively on Linux and is seen as a positive. My guess is if steam deck takes off there will be more games trying to build natively on Linux.
- shmerl 5y ago
  Besides, supporting a game means more than making a Windows build and expecting it to "just work" through Wine / Proton. Proper support requires some effort, even if it's translated. So they can as well support a native release if they even care about support.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  I'm a Linux gamer, and when I see an indie game with native Linux build I avoid it. In my experience they always have problems, and I can't work out how to get Steam to give me the windows version with proton instead of the Linux version.
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    It's quite easy: go to the settings and force the use of a Steam Play compatibility tool.
  - doubled112 5y ago
    Right click the game in library -> Properties -> Compatibility -> Force the Use of a Specific Steam Play Compatability Tool Now install the game.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Not surprising, steam deck also supports Windows now. So lets see which OS gets mostly using on it.

shmerl 5y ago

I don't see why it has to become less likely for those who care about performance (which major games usually do). Translating DX12 or DX11 into Vulkan has performance overhead, even if you manage to run the game better than on Windows itself (for example Cyberpunk 2077 performs on Linux better than on Windows now). But native releases can perform even better. And it's probably not always the case that Windows games perform better on Linux through translation than on Windows. Besides, Wine has to play constant catch up to all kind of NIH stuff that MS will produce. Direct storage is the new one that doesn't have any translation implementation yet. So value of native releases won't disappear.

jhasse 5y ago
> for example Cyberpunk 2077 performs on Linux better than on Windows now Do you have a link? Everything I found suggest that it's the other way around, but Linux comes close.
- shmerl 5y ago
  * https://twitter.com/killyourfm/status/1502338832053776385 https://twitter.com/killyourfm/status/1502338832053776385 * https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-amd-linux/1314431-radv-driver-adds-support-for-valve-s-new-vkd3d-proton-focused-vulkan-extension?p=1314565#post1314565 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-d... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1khMYMO5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo1khMYMO5c The above is for AMD. And I saw people with Nvidia reporting it performing better on Linux as well.
sbcd 5y ago
I play elden ring on windows.. with dxvk/vkd3d dll because they fixed the massive stuttering issue that this console port had on PC. Even on windows this translation layer can give better performance.

modeless 5y ago

If Proton just becomes the "game runtime" for Linux, that's OK! It's still open source. There may come a time when Proton compatibility becomes as important or even more important than Windows compatibility for game developers. Not only might game developers start explicitly supporting Proton, they could even contribute fixes upstream, unlike with Windows. Ultimately if it becomes popular enough, Proton could execute the embrace, extend, extinguish strategy on Windows itself. We'll know it succeeded if one day Microsoft gives up NT kernel development in favor of shipping Linux/Proton, just the way they ultimately gave up on Trident and started shipping Blink/Chromium. Today Windows is a relatively small and shrinking percentage of Microsoft's revenue so maybe it's not out of the question in a decade or two.

sph 5y ago
I'd argue that Proton is better than native Linux support in the long term, hear me out. Linux userspace API has no promise of long term compatibility, and in fact there's a lot of churn, especially nowadays as we approach the Year of the Linux Desktop and technologies come and go as they're improved. The Windows API instead is known for its long term compatibility. Microsoft goes out of their way to ensure applications keep running a decade later, and using that as a base for gaming is a win-win, as developers can target two operating systems with one API, and gamers have more guarantees their game will still be playable on Ubuntu 2030 edition. The last few times I played native Linux games I had to fish for old and unsupported libssl and libjpeg libraries that my distribution doesn't ship anymore. I can blame the port, but nowadays I just try the Proton version first.
- shmerl 5y ago
  It's not about Windows long term support, it's about Wine long term support (which is much better than Windows own). So I agree with your point that long term Wine offers better support than Linux native ABIs. I doubt Windows ABIs are better than Linux native ones on their own long term wise (i.e. without Wine). That said, it would be cool for someone to develop Wine-like wrapping of historic Linux ABIs into modern ones so you could have the same preservation effect. There was for example such project for older SDL over new one.

qudat 5y ago

I’ve seen game devs advertise that their game works natively on Linux and is seen as a positive. My guess is if steam deck takes off there will be more games trying to build natively on Linux.

shmerl 5y ago
Besides, supporting a game means more than making a Windows build and expecting it to "just work" through Wine / Proton. Proper support requires some effort, even if it's translated. So they can as well support a native release if they even care about support.
jay_kyburz 5y ago
I'm a Linux gamer, and when I see an indie game with native Linux build I avoid it. In my experience they always have problems, and I can't work out how to get Steam to give me the windows version with proton instead of the Linux version.
- howinteresting 5y ago
  It's quite easy: go to the settings and force the use of a Steam Play compatibility tool.
- doubled112 5y ago
  Right click the game in library -> Properties -> Compatibility -> Force the Use of a Specific Steam Play Compatability Tool Now install the game.
pjmlp 5y ago
Not surprising, steam deck also supports Windows now. So lets see which OS gets mostly using on it.