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Plain text can be super versatile (task-tracking and note-taking are great examples), but equally important are the guarantees that your content is truly yours

Plain text can be super versatile (task-tracking and note-taking are great examples), but equally important are the guarantees that your content is truly yours (no lock-in). With all these plain text posts surfacing regularly, I'd love for the lesser-known org markup (https://orgmode.org https://orgmode.org) to gain more adoption. It's a real power-house. Its Emacs origin may put some off, but it's plain text, so your content can be ingested/consumed by either regular text editors or any app focusing on specific user-journeys. I built two org-powered apps for iOS myself: https://plainorg.com https://plainorg.com https://flathabits.com https://flathabits.com There are other great ones out there: https://beorg.app https://beorg.app https://braintool.org https://braintool.org https://easyorgmode.com https://easyorgmode.com https://logseq.com https://logseq.com https://organice.200ok.ch https://organice.200ok.ch https://orgro.org https://orgro.org http://orgzly.com http://orgzly.com Thanks to Karl Voit for driving org markup awareness outside of Emacs via Orgdown https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown. He's also got a great post showcasing org strengths at https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only

afarviral 5y ago
Orgmode is awesome but it's frustratingly difficult to use outside Emacs, and using Emacs isn't an option or productive for the vast majority of people, far, far too much cognitive overhead. Im hoping for a hybrid that is easier to read as plain markup but has the extensibility of org.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  I've found Obsidian pretty great, but it's not opensource. It has a pretty alive community as well and it's all just text and pictures in the end, so it stays in your control.
  - afarviral 5y ago
    I'm a big fan of obsidian and use it for all my notes already but being basically just text, links, and pictures, it's easy to long for the power of org-mode.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      THat is true but after trying to get the hang of it for a week I was back to obsidian :) . I think it would take months, and since I don't use emacs as my regular editor it just wasn't worth the cognitive load.
- xenodium 5y ago
  > Orgmode is awesome but it's frustratingly difficult to use outside Emacs Ah yes. I get the Emacs part putting some folks off. Org markup is super capable and stands on its own merit. I’d love for it to be more independently recognised, spurring a rich and diverse ecosystem of org-powered tools (outside of Emacs). I’m scratching my own itch for iOS but also taking feature requests along the way :) https://plainorg.com https://plainorg.com https://flathabits.com https://flathabits.com
eBombzor 5y ago
What are the advantages orgmode has over markdown
- xenodium 5y ago
  Karl Voit does it a lot more justice than I would https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only Also there's a super comprehensive guide if you want to go all in on Emacs side of things. It's written in org itself http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.org http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.org and exported to html http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html.
  - Groxx 5y ago
    I dunno, that kinda seems like throwing a bunch of straw-man arguments and unjustified claims like >Anybody using a simple text editor is very fast at adding markup for headings, font variations, and so forth. The previous section proved that other markup languages clearly fail in many cases. Markdown is not quick to add markup with a simple text editor? Really? Org mode has weird and nasty corners and multiple ways to do things too, they're just ignoring them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523684 Then there's >Org Mode Has Excellent Tool Support No, it has a single tool's support and no spec (though it's in progress last I saw, which is great). Almost everything else compared in that page is superior here, having specs (even if multiple competing specs, e.g. commonmark vs github) and multiple implementations.
- NeutralForest 5y ago
  You can run pretty much any programming language from within org-mode and have literate lab/reports/configurations. Since org is tightly integrated with Emacs, there's also much more interaction with code in general (Emacs Lisp) which lets you do pretty crazy things. Like run and output SQL queries to your document or have interaction à la Jupyter Notebook.
- nextos 5y ago
  For me it has 3 advantages: * Excellent outliner features, similar to those from OmniOutliner for example * Great support for tables (including mini spreadsheets), links, footnotes / citations, tags / keywords and timestamps * The ability to build interpreters that create views of one or several documents The last feature looks weird and exotic, but it is super useful. For example a kanban is just a view that displays e.g. ongoing tasks and forthcoming deadlines harvested from your org files. Actually, Emacs already has this feature implemented as the function org-agenda. But you can build other equivalent views.
flenserboy 5y ago
(If you know, of course:) How well does org-mode play with Pandoc? Much of my workflow goes from Markdown > LaTeX, and Pandoc works pretty well for that. Thanks!
- NeutralForest 5y ago
  There's pandoc-mode in Emacs and that lets you fully integrate pandoc with org if needed. But you can also convert org files to LaTeX and PDF directly. That's how I take all my notes.
Torwald 5y ago
> the guarantees that your content is truly yours (no lock-in). Maybe I am a magician of some kind, but my content is always mine, regardless of the file type I use. For the sake of argument, let's say I have a floppy disk with a Vizawrite file on it, that I typed 30 years ago. There is no lock-in. I still can use that file.
- macintux 5y ago
  There are at least two problems with proprietary file formats. First is the app lock-in, which perhaps hasn’t bitten you but not everyone is so fortunate, especially in a scenario the article describes, corporate environments where you can’t install arbitrary software onto the machine you use. The other problem is corruption. I haven’t experienced this in a few years, but it’s certainly not unheard-of for a binary data file to experience corruption; often the only way to recover it is to perform surgery on it, which not everyone will have the tools and skills to do. Plain text files are much safer in that regard.
  - Torwald 5y ago
    The app lock-in doesn't make me lose access to my content. Many proprietary formats are supported by import/export in major apps. There are converter tools. Also, I do not need to switch apps. The problem with corruption is solved by backups. It's a solved problem.
    - pmarreck 5y ago
      > The problem with corruption is solved by backups well, and checksums. otherwise you might not be aware of that bitrot. FEC would be ideal.
    - OtomotO 5y ago
      Yes, I can do all that, with a lot more effort, or just use plain text for content that doesn't need more and be happy with a simpler solution
  - something98 5y ago
wholien 5y ago
Why two apps, Plainorg & Flathabits? If I wanted to use one, which one should I use?
- Brajeshwar 5y ago
  I believe you missed checking out the websites. The two apps are pretty different but do focuses on the philosophy of the simplicity of plaint ext. Interesting Apps. Edit: I'm not the OP
pmarreck 5y ago
Do you (or anyone else) know of any tools to help with the autofocus system?

afarviral 5y ago

Orgmode is awesome but it's frustratingly difficult to use outside Emacs, and using Emacs isn't an option or productive for the vast majority of people, far, far too much cognitive overhead. Im hoping for a hybrid that is easier to read as plain markup but has the extensibility of org.

stjohnswarts 5y ago
I've found Obsidian pretty great, but it's not opensource. It has a pretty alive community as well and it's all just text and pictures in the end, so it stays in your control.
- afarviral 5y ago
  I'm a big fan of obsidian and use it for all my notes already but being basically just text, links, and pictures, it's easy to long for the power of org-mode.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    THat is true but after trying to get the hang of it for a week I was back to obsidian :) . I think it would take months, and since I don't use emacs as my regular editor it just wasn't worth the cognitive load.
xenodium 5y ago
> Orgmode is awesome but it's frustratingly difficult to use outside Emacs Ah yes. I get the Emacs part putting some folks off. Org markup is super capable and stands on its own merit. I’d love for it to be more independently recognised, spurring a rich and diverse ecosystem of org-powered tools (outside of Emacs). I’m scratching my own itch for iOS but also taking feature requests along the way :) https://plainorg.com https://plainorg.com https://flathabits.com https://flathabits.com

eBombzor 5y ago

What are the advantages orgmode has over markdown

xenodium 5y ago
Karl Voit does it a lot more justice than I would https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only Also there's a super comprehensive guide if you want to go all in on Emacs side of things. It's written in org itself http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.org http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.org and exported to html http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html.
- Groxx 5y ago
  I dunno, that kinda seems like throwing a bunch of straw-man arguments and unjustified claims like >Anybody using a simple text editor is very fast at adding markup for headings, font variations, and so forth. The previous section proved that other markup languages clearly fail in many cases. Markdown is not quick to add markup with a simple text editor? Really? Org mode has weird and nasty corners and multiple ways to do things too, they're just ignoring them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523684 Then there's >Org Mode Has Excellent Tool Support No, it has a single tool's support and no spec (though it's in progress last I saw, which is great). Almost everything else compared in that page is superior here, having specs (even if multiple competing specs, e.g. commonmark vs github) and multiple implementations.
NeutralForest 5y ago
You can run pretty much any programming language from within org-mode and have literate lab/reports/configurations. Since org is tightly integrated with Emacs, there's also much more interaction with code in general (Emacs Lisp) which lets you do pretty crazy things. Like run and output SQL queries to your document or have interaction à la Jupyter Notebook.
nextos 5y ago
For me it has 3 advantages: * Excellent outliner features, similar to those from OmniOutliner for example * Great support for tables (including mini spreadsheets), links, footnotes / citations, tags / keywords and timestamps * The ability to build interpreters that create views of one or several documents The last feature looks weird and exotic, but it is super useful. For example a kanban is just a view that displays e.g. ongoing tasks and forthcoming deadlines harvested from your org files. Actually, Emacs already has this feature implemented as the function org-agenda. But you can build other equivalent views.

flenserboy 5y ago

(If you know, of course:) How well does org-mode play with Pandoc? Much of my workflow goes from Markdown > LaTeX, and Pandoc works pretty well for that. Thanks!

NeutralForest 5y ago
There's pandoc-mode in Emacs and that lets you fully integrate pandoc with org if needed. But you can also convert org files to LaTeX and PDF directly. That's how I take all my notes.

Torwald 5y ago

> the guarantees that your content is truly yours (no lock-in). Maybe I am a magician of some kind, but my content is always mine, regardless of the file type I use. For the sake of argument, let's say I have a floppy disk with a Vizawrite file on it, that I typed 30 years ago. There is no lock-in. I still can use that file.

macintux 5y ago
There are at least two problems with proprietary file formats. First is the app lock-in, which perhaps hasn’t bitten you but not everyone is so fortunate, especially in a scenario the article describes, corporate environments where you can’t install arbitrary software onto the machine you use. The other problem is corruption. I haven’t experienced this in a few years, but it’s certainly not unheard-of for a binary data file to experience corruption; often the only way to recover it is to perform surgery on it, which not everyone will have the tools and skills to do. Plain text files are much safer in that regard.
- Torwald 5y ago
  The app lock-in doesn't make me lose access to my content. Many proprietary formats are supported by import/export in major apps. There are converter tools. Also, I do not need to switch apps. The problem with corruption is solved by backups. It's a solved problem.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    > The problem with corruption is solved by backups well, and checksums. otherwise you might not be aware of that bitrot. FEC would be ideal.
  - OtomotO 5y ago
    Yes, I can do all that, with a lot more effort, or just use plain text for content that doesn't need more and be happy with a simpler solution
- something98 5y ago

wholien 5y ago

Why two apps, Plainorg & Flathabits? If I wanted to use one, which one should I use?

Brajeshwar 5y ago
I believe you missed checking out the websites. The two apps are pretty different but do focuses on the philosophy of the simplicity of plaint ext. Interesting Apps. Edit: I'm not the OP

pmarreck 5y ago

Do you (or anyone else) know of any tools to help with the autofocus system?