6 ms·

Regardless of whether a Nazi would disagree for ideological reasons, these facts are part of the historical record: 1) big capitalists within Germany and abroa

by xtian 5y ago

Regardless of whether a Nazi would disagree for ideological reasons, these facts are part of the historical record: 1) big capitalists within Germany and abroad funded and supported Hitler 2) capitalist countries rejected repeated requests from the USSR to form an anti-fascist alliance before WWII

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> 1) big capitalists within Germany and abroad funded and supported Hitler of course, big capitals funded the leader of Germany that by creating a giant war machine, was filling their pockets with bags of money. > 2) capitalist countries rejected repeated requests from the USSR to form an anti-fascist alliance before WWII But also Stalin provided substantial support to the nazis, until 1941... I'm not saying you are wrong, but cherry picking facts doesn't magically become history.
- kkfx 5y ago
  Just try reading IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation by Edwin Black or if you can read french "Libres d'obéir: Le management, du nazisme à aujourd'hui" by Johann Chapoutot to start. From recent web resources I suggest: - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-their-elite-schools-on-top-british-private-schools https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th... - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/uks-propaganda-leaflets-inspired-1960s-massacre-of-indonesian-communists https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/uks-propaganda... - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/31/louis-de-bernieres-reveals-extreme-cruelty-he-suffered-at-prep-school https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/31/louis-de-berni... - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-fdr-roosevelt-coup-attempt-1930s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-... Just to pick the first I've read recently. The history not cherry-picked say a thing: when nazism and fascism born their idea was common in all western countries from their élites to some not-so-small cohort of their populations. Just like today's populism. BTW, yes Stalin (one who took money from UK Crown, with the excuse of reliefs for Ukraine famine, via some formal "NGOs" ante-litteram) have signed an agreement with the nazi, but only after he understand that the western countries will never be partners. And future development have proved he have had good points, just read about "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot"...
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    > Just try reading IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporati That's a well know fact. It is also a well know fact that USA went to the Moon thanks to a nazi high ranking member, Wernher Von Braun. Of course the west was aligned with the "WASP" west and not with the "commie" Russia, just like today: we side with Ukraine and not with Putin's Russia mainly because we wanna keep the western propaganda on "democracy and freedom and the best lifestyle ever" alive and kicking, not because we really believe that we share the same values in the end. And because if we don't, the World will say that we're helping Putin. Same thing happened in 1939, but reversed. Everyone was afraid of being infected by the "communist revolution", not only the politicians, but the public opinion too! It was a people's choice too, that lasted 70 years and still nowadays you can hear people saying that "x is bad because it's chinese and chinese are communists, so they must be bad!". It's the tragedy of tribalism: us and them, good vs evil, that kind of propaganda that we still endure today! > have signed an agreement with the nazi, but only after he understand that the western countries will never be partners. I love Stalin's mustache like everybody else, but history is history: Stalin actually helped the nazis, they didn't simply sign an agreement, with that pact they encouraged Hitler to invade Poland, since there was no more opposition on the east: Germany took the most of it, Stalin invaded the eastern part. Also they gave ton of raw materials to Germany, for example they contributed a lot to "Operation Barbarossa".
    - kkfx 5y ago
      > history is history: Stalin actually helped the nazis Yes, history is history: stalin was a dictator, probably the murderer of Lenin (witch was a dictator too, but at least with far less blood in his hands) BUT stalin help the nazi only to protect Soviet Union, because he know he can't sustain a war having just emerged from a nth turn of civil wars AND he understand the the rest of the west will not help him. He first propose to stop hitler but UK say "no, just wait, he only invade a bit of nearby countries for good reasons", they keep waiting, they send diplomats without any decision power to Russia etc. hitler on contrary have sent a plenipotentiary and sign a clear agreement. That's is. Just like today China: Russian was no friends of Germans like we are no friends of China but we need a reliable partner, at that time the nazi was ones, these days China is one. Oh, BTW the propaganda stating Russian bear rape a democratic country can't be swallowed by anyone who just read news: we all know that Ukrainian gov was as "democratic" as Xi or Putin and is a puppet regime planted by the west, the west who actually have financed, formed and armed local nazis to keep up the eastward expansion of NATO keeping the EU away from a partnership with Russia. At that point for us EU Citizens our own government are responsible for high treason just because they made choices for USA and UK interests against our own interests and they have financed and armed as well nazis, witch is a crime in most EU after WWII... There is no tribalism, it's just a game of interest, BUT one thing is the interest of their own country another is the interest of a foreign one.
michannne 5y ago
You are conflating the alignment based on a subset of shared goals with shared origins. Capitalists supported "some" of the things early Nazi Germany was doing, that doesn't mean the Nazi purpose was to combat socialism (although, if combatting socialism furthered their other goals, then they wasted no time in doing that)
csee 5y ago
2) This has nothing to do with capitalism. The reason Britain didn't form a coalition with the USSR was because they were petrified of getting Stalin's troops out of central Europe after a war. And for good reason given who Stalin was. So they wrongly chose appeasement in the hope that Hitler wouldn't do more. A big mistake, but one you can sympathize with to at least some small extent, and it'd be disingenuous to try to link it to capitalism somehow.

by xtian 5y ago

peoplefromibiza 5y ago

> 1) big capitalists within Germany and abroad funded and supported Hitler of course, big capitals funded the leader of Germany that by creating a giant war machine, was filling their pockets with bags of money. > 2) capitalist countries rejected repeated requests from the USSR to form an anti-fascist alliance before WWII But also Stalin provided substantial support to the nazis, until 1941... I'm not saying you are wrong, but cherry picking facts doesn't magically become history.

kkfx 5y ago
Just try reading IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation by Edwin Black or if you can read french "Libres d'obéir: Le management, du nazisme à aujourd'hui" by Johann Chapoutot to start. From recent web resources I suggest: - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-their-elite-schools-on-top-british-private-schools https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th... - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/uks-propaganda-leaflets-inspired-1960s-massacre-of-indonesian-communists https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/uks-propaganda... - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/31/louis-de-bernieres-reveals-extreme-cruelty-he-suffered-at-prep-school https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/31/louis-de-berni... - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-fdr-roosevelt-coup-attempt-1930s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-... Just to pick the first I've read recently. The history not cherry-picked say a thing: when nazism and fascism born their idea was common in all western countries from their élites to some not-so-small cohort of their populations. Just like today's populism. BTW, yes Stalin (one who took money from UK Crown, with the excuse of reliefs for Ukraine famine, via some formal "NGOs" ante-litteram) have signed an agreement with the nazi, but only after he understand that the western countries will never be partners. And future development have proved he have had good points, just read about "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot"...
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > Just try reading IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporati That's a well know fact. It is also a well know fact that USA went to the Moon thanks to a nazi high ranking member, Wernher Von Braun. Of course the west was aligned with the "WASP" west and not with the "commie" Russia, just like today: we side with Ukraine and not with Putin's Russia mainly because we wanna keep the western propaganda on "democracy and freedom and the best lifestyle ever" alive and kicking, not because we really believe that we share the same values in the end. And because if we don't, the World will say that we're helping Putin. Same thing happened in 1939, but reversed. Everyone was afraid of being infected by the "communist revolution", not only the politicians, but the public opinion too! It was a people's choice too, that lasted 70 years and still nowadays you can hear people saying that "x is bad because it's chinese and chinese are communists, so they must be bad!". It's the tragedy of tribalism: us and them, good vs evil, that kind of propaganda that we still endure today! > have signed an agreement with the nazi, but only after he understand that the western countries will never be partners. I love Stalin's mustache like everybody else, but history is history: Stalin actually helped the nazis, they didn't simply sign an agreement, with that pact they encouraged Hitler to invade Poland, since there was no more opposition on the east: Germany took the most of it, Stalin invaded the eastern part. Also they gave ton of raw materials to Germany, for example they contributed a lot to "Operation Barbarossa".
  - kkfx 5y ago
    > history is history: Stalin actually helped the nazis Yes, history is history: stalin was a dictator, probably the murderer of Lenin (witch was a dictator too, but at least with far less blood in his hands) BUT stalin help the nazi only to protect Soviet Union, because he know he can't sustain a war having just emerged from a nth turn of civil wars AND he understand the the rest of the west will not help him. He first propose to stop hitler but UK say "no, just wait, he only invade a bit of nearby countries for good reasons", they keep waiting, they send diplomats without any decision power to Russia etc. hitler on contrary have sent a plenipotentiary and sign a clear agreement. That's is. Just like today China: Russian was no friends of Germans like we are no friends of China but we need a reliable partner, at that time the nazi was ones, these days China is one. Oh, BTW the propaganda stating Russian bear rape a democratic country can't be swallowed by anyone who just read news: we all know that Ukrainian gov was as "democratic" as Xi or Putin and is a puppet regime planted by the west, the west who actually have financed, formed and armed local nazis to keep up the eastward expansion of NATO keeping the EU away from a partnership with Russia. At that point for us EU Citizens our own government are responsible for high treason just because they made choices for USA and UK interests against our own interests and they have financed and armed as well nazis, witch is a crime in most EU after WWII... There is no tribalism, it's just a game of interest, BUT one thing is the interest of their own country another is the interest of a foreign one.

michannne 5y ago

You are conflating the alignment based on a subset of shared goals with shared origins. Capitalists supported "some" of the things early Nazi Germany was doing, that doesn't mean the Nazi purpose was to combat socialism (although, if combatting socialism furthered their other goals, then they wasted no time in doing that)

csee 5y ago

2) This has nothing to do with capitalism. The reason Britain didn't form a coalition with the USSR was because they were petrified of getting Stalin's troops out of central Europe after a war. And for good reason given who Stalin was. So they wrongly chose appeasement in the hope that Hitler wouldn't do more. A big mistake, but one you can sympathize with to at least some small extent, and it'd be disingenuous to try to link it to capitalism somehow.