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> (I'm Italian, I know well what happen) You might be Italian, yet you fail to mention any notable Italian family name, but I am Italian for real and this sent

> (I'm Italian, I know well what happen) You might be Italian, yet you fail to mention any notable Italian family name, but I am Italian for real and this sentence > Italy loose it's status of II grade European power, now reduced to a corruptocracy mostly controlled by anglophone neoliberals and local criminals doesn't make any sense at all. Historically, for starters. Your "essay" read mostly like some truth (capitalism in Italy sided with fascism because, at laest at the beginning, their interests were aligned - for example they both hated worker unions and both feared the Bolshevik Revolution), but coated in zeitgeit-ism (sorry for the bad neologism) Also the XVII Congress of the Italian Socialist Party that took place in 1921 in Livorno ended up with the split between socialists and communists in Italy, something that did not really help the socialist cause in Italy. You produced what we call "populism" nowadays, even if yours seems like coming from the left, it's still populism. If you are really Italian, you probably voted for the five star movement, which means you are (big) part of the problem, not of the solution.

kkfx 5y ago
> You might be Italian, yet you fail to mention any notable Italian family name The first name is Agnelli, the ones who say being fascist in Rome and socialist in Turin, Pirelli, FIMM (Magneti Marelli), Piaggio just to name few that still exists today. > If you are really Italian, you probably voted for the five star movement I'm Italian, and no I do not voted M5S because coming from a Partisans family I was trained to recognize fascism. The original PNF and it's successors (I might know "Partito dell'Uomo Qualunque" for instance) have started as the 5S, apparently a left-ish, young and innovating party, but in reality a PR engine to elicit consent. If you know Italian history a bit you might know that Giorgio Bocca (one of the famous Partisans commander) when young was one who took PNF card with just two digit number, he learn after. The same have happened in Germany, original nazism appear as a kind of "moderated socialism". Actually in Italy there is exactly ZERO party I can vote, and exactly no left parties. The most left-ish read that three time are Fratelli d'Italia (YES, I'm not joking) and Lega, of course not because their are really left-ish, they are actually fascist, but they present themselves to the masses with left-wing ideas speech and that's why they grab consensus from "poor" working classes replacing historical PC-derived parties like PD witch it's correct name should be Partito Democristiano not Partito Democratico. I suggest a relatively modern song from what it left from the real political left: https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=61641 https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=61641 perhaps together with https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=219 https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=219 and a small history of how songs from Resistenza have been pushed into oblivion substituting them with Bella Ciao almost no one have chanted except perhaps some small white militia in Tuscany or why in France famous song like "Le déserteur" changing the last part from Prévenez vos gendarmes Que j'emporte des armes Et que je sais tirer to Que je n'aurai pas d'armes Et qu'ils pourront tirer just to give few examples of the slow push toward a new dictatorial society.
- B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
  > slow push toward a new dictatorial society Why would 'they' do that, when they've become so adept at selling anything to the public? With universal voting rights, you can tell the customers you're just serving their wishes and there is no ground for complaint. Playing a whole level up from "Pour la canaille la mitraille", that's just incompetence nowadays.
  - kkfx 5y ago
    When you reach a certain amount of power your horizon grow accordingly. Neoliberals do not sell "anything" anymore, those were the classic liberals, those who create two world war and 30+ years wars in '800. Their successors have evolved. They change schools, to form puppets instead of citizens, they change the society at a slow peace to lay the foundation of a new dictatorship, they'll became "the platform" of the society, the sole who detain knowledge, the sole who have factories etc. Voting these days is just a show, starting from the Condorcet paradox we are now at a point that thanks to media alignment and propaganda all visible candidates are equally puppet formally different but effectively maneuvered by the same master. For a certain amount of time people was kept quiet with high growth, so people see improvements, is entertained and so "happy". When scarcity arrive such system break, a war is needed, catastrophes are needed, something big enough to justify the new messy state of things. But pushing to war and action an aging population grown to be just spectators from the sofa is difficult. So there is a need of "new citizens", young and obedient, that's the purpose of social score, of smart cities.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > The first name is Agnelli, the ones who say being fascist in Rome and socialist in Turin, Pirelli, FIMM (Magneti Marelli), Piaggio just to name few that still exists today. Do you mean Elkann? :D :D :D Agnelli (I guess you mean Giovanni Agnelli, or "L'avvocato") also financed this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolyatti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolyatti Which still exists Agnelli is simply the most popular scapegoat among Italian zeitgeist-ers, but only the older ones, who actually grew up with their parents telling them that he was the source of anyone problems, so I guess you're in your 50s and agree with Wu Ming because you think they are "real leftists"... > Actually in Italy there is exactly ZERO party I can vote, and exactly no left parties CVD: the man criticizing "l'uomo qualunque" (the average Joe) is the one expressing an average Joe's opinion. I am from a partisan family as well, all my family was communist and fought for the freedom of Italy from nazi-fascism, but the problem today on "our" side is exactly the nostalgic leftist, that person that between Ukraine and Russia shouts "take Italy out of NATO" > The same have happened in Germany, original nazism appear as a kind of "moderated socialism" It always start with this giant lie with people like you... I know where you come from, don't even try, it doesn't work with me. > The most left-ish read that three time are Fratelli d'Italia And here it is the "I was trained to recognize fascism" that goes out of the window! I'm not even curious to hear why, because I know very well why. Unfortunately... > be Partito Democristiano not Partito Democratico as I've said: you're part of the problem, not of the solution. You might as well voted for five stars, as the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck" > Prévenez vos gendarmes Sorry, I am born and raised Roman, I don't take lessons from those that tried too many times to destroy my city (and Italian lives with it), I side with the busts of Gianicolo, not with the heirs of napoleon, who let his troops stable their horses in the refectory were the Leonardo's "Last Supper" is, ruining it forever that then colonized Africa and lately put Libya in jeopardy just to put their hands on Italian ENI gas infrastructure over there... You know what's really funny? That the Umberto Eco's essay on the UR-fascism (that should be the topic of this post) is about exactly people like you. And about the reasons why fascism and nazism went to power, which is not to fight socialism. If you read it before jumping to the comment section, you'd know it. > 13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view – one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People. Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. One of the first sentences uttered by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was "I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy place into a bivouac for my maniples" – "maniples" being a subdivision of the traditional Roman legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found better housing for his maniples, but a little later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism. Doesn't it sounds strangely familiar to what you said? that, paraphrasing, more or less was - in Italy everybody is corrupt, only a few anglophones and criminal family matters - there's no real leftist party, the only good leftist party is the one that doesn't exists anymore, all the others are accomplices of the few anglophones and criminal families ruling the country aforementioned You're no Gaber or Pasolini, you're average Joe.

kkfx 5y ago

> You might be Italian, yet you fail to mention any notable Italian family name The first name is Agnelli, the ones who say being fascist in Rome and socialist in Turin, Pirelli, FIMM (Magneti Marelli), Piaggio just to name few that still exists today. > If you are really Italian, you probably voted for the five star movement I'm Italian, and no I do not voted M5S because coming from a Partisans family I was trained to recognize fascism. The original PNF and it's successors (I might know "Partito dell'Uomo Qualunque" for instance) have started as the 5S, apparently a left-ish, young and innovating party, but in reality a PR engine to elicit consent. If you know Italian history a bit you might know that Giorgio Bocca (one of the famous Partisans commander) when young was one who took PNF card with just two digit number, he learn after. The same have happened in Germany, original nazism appear as a kind of "moderated socialism". Actually in Italy there is exactly ZERO party I can vote, and exactly no left parties. The most left-ish read that three time are Fratelli d'Italia (YES, I'm not joking) and Lega, of course not because their are really left-ish, they are actually fascist, but they present themselves to the masses with left-wing ideas speech and that's why they grab consensus from "poor" working classes replacing historical PC-derived parties like PD witch it's correct name should be Partito Democristiano not Partito Democratico. I suggest a relatively modern song from what it left from the real political left: https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=61641 https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=61641 perhaps together with https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=219 https://www.antiwarsongs.org/canzone.php?lang=it&id=219 and a small history of how songs from Resistenza have been pushed into oblivion substituting them with Bella Ciao almost no one have chanted except perhaps some small white militia in Tuscany or why in France famous song like "Le déserteur" changing the last part from Prévenez vos gendarmes Que j'emporte des armes Et que je sais tirer to Que je n'aurai pas d'armes Et qu'ils pourront tirer just to give few examples of the slow push toward a new dictatorial society.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
> slow push toward a new dictatorial society Why would 'they' do that, when they've become so adept at selling anything to the public? With universal voting rights, you can tell the customers you're just serving their wishes and there is no ground for complaint. Playing a whole level up from "Pour la canaille la mitraille", that's just incompetence nowadays.
- kkfx 5y ago
  When you reach a certain amount of power your horizon grow accordingly. Neoliberals do not sell "anything" anymore, those were the classic liberals, those who create two world war and 30+ years wars in '800. Their successors have evolved. They change schools, to form puppets instead of citizens, they change the society at a slow peace to lay the foundation of a new dictatorship, they'll became "the platform" of the society, the sole who detain knowledge, the sole who have factories etc. Voting these days is just a show, starting from the Condorcet paradox we are now at a point that thanks to media alignment and propaganda all visible candidates are equally puppet formally different but effectively maneuvered by the same master. For a certain amount of time people was kept quiet with high growth, so people see improvements, is entertained and so "happy". When scarcity arrive such system break, a war is needed, catastrophes are needed, something big enough to justify the new messy state of things. But pushing to war and action an aging population grown to be just spectators from the sofa is difficult. So there is a need of "new citizens", young and obedient, that's the purpose of social score, of smart cities.
peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> The first name is Agnelli, the ones who say being fascist in Rome and socialist in Turin, Pirelli, FIMM (Magneti Marelli), Piaggio just to name few that still exists today. Do you mean Elkann? :D :D :D Agnelli (I guess you mean Giovanni Agnelli, or "L'avvocato") also financed this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolyatti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolyatti Which still exists Agnelli is simply the most popular scapegoat among Italian zeitgeist-ers, but only the older ones, who actually grew up with their parents telling them that he was the source of anyone problems, so I guess you're in your 50s and agree with Wu Ming because you think they are "real leftists"... > Actually in Italy there is exactly ZERO party I can vote, and exactly no left parties CVD: the man criticizing "l'uomo qualunque" (the average Joe) is the one expressing an average Joe's opinion. I am from a partisan family as well, all my family was communist and fought for the freedom of Italy from nazi-fascism, but the problem today on "our" side is exactly the nostalgic leftist, that person that between Ukraine and Russia shouts "take Italy out of NATO" > The same have happened in Germany, original nazism appear as a kind of "moderated socialism" It always start with this giant lie with people like you... I know where you come from, don't even try, it doesn't work with me. > The most left-ish read that three time are Fratelli d'Italia And here it is the "I was trained to recognize fascism" that goes out of the window! I'm not even curious to hear why, because I know very well why. Unfortunately... > be Partito Democristiano not Partito Democratico as I've said: you're part of the problem, not of the solution. You might as well voted for five stars, as the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck" > Prévenez vos gendarmes Sorry, I am born and raised Roman, I don't take lessons from those that tried too many times to destroy my city (and Italian lives with it), I side with the busts of Gianicolo, not with the heirs of napoleon, who let his troops stable their horses in the refectory were the Leonardo's "Last Supper" is, ruining it forever that then colonized Africa and lately put Libya in jeopardy just to put their hands on Italian ENI gas infrastructure over there... You know what's really funny? That the Umberto Eco's essay on the UR-fascism (that should be the topic of this post) is about exactly people like you. And about the reasons why fascism and nazism went to power, which is not to fight socialism. If you read it before jumping to the comment section, you'd know it. > 13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view – one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People. Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. One of the first sentences uttered by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was "I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy place into a bivouac for my maniples" – "maniples" being a subdivision of the traditional Roman legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found better housing for his maniples, but a little later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism. Doesn't it sounds strangely familiar to what you said? that, paraphrasing, more or less was - in Italy everybody is corrupt, only a few anglophones and criminal family matters - there's no real leftist party, the only good leftist party is the one that doesn't exists anymore, all the others are accomplices of the few anglophones and criminal families ruling the country aforementioned You're no Gaber or Pasolini, you're average Joe.