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> During World War II, the Americans who took part in the Spanish war were called "premature anti-fascists" – meaning that fighting against Hitler in the Fortie

> During World War II, the Americans who took part in the Spanish war were called "premature anti-fascists" – meaning that fighting against Hitler in the Forties was a moral duty for every good American, but fighting against Franco too early, in the Thirties, smelled sour because it was mainly done by Communists and other leftists. . . Just to troll a bit-- if you fought too early on the side of the lower-case "other leftists" in, say, Barcelona you may have gotten in a gunfight with a group of communists[1]. Turns out the world is a complex place. Speaking of which (and continuing to troll)-- anyone know why the lower-case "other leftists" in Barcelona boxed up the photographic evidence of their existence and sent it to the UK instead of the USSR for safekeeping[2]? I mean if the forces against fascism were "Communists, Etcetera" why not send them there? 1: https://medium.com/@umawrnkl/the-anarcho-communist-dream-of-barcelona-1936-a83b8a79c7f3 https://medium.com/@umawrnkl/the-anarcho-communist-dream-of-... 2: https://autonomies.org/2019/12/the-lost-images-of-anarchist-barcelona/ https://autonomies.org/2019/12/the-lost-images-of-anarchist-...

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I think you might be too strongly associating 'USSR' and 'communist'. They're intertwined but not identical.
- Smoosh 5y ago
  The same thing happens with Fascism and the Nazis.
sorokod 5y ago
Well, Orwell was one of those "leftist" and did write "Animal Farm". BTW the photos in your second link are fantastic! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell#Spanish_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell#Spanish_Civil_Wa...
- memonkey 5y ago
  Isaac Asimov wrote a great critique on 1984 which includes a few thoughts on Animal Farm: http://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htm http://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htm
  - michannne 5y ago
    It seems evident, to me at least, that Asimov views "arms-length extremism" as a core part of the identity of upper case Leftism, at least in the West (and predominantly America). The way Asimov approaches 1984 appears to be the bog-standard "Well, if you're not a Nazi then you can't possibly be as evil as the Nazis". It betrays a view of looking at politics from a standpoint of a slope, rather than a hill that descends into immorality on both sides, and I'm sure Asimov derives that view (as does much of the modern world) from the reasons behind and outcomes of WWII. IMO, we still haven't gotten past this - even entertaining such a discussion can't be had without acknowledging the 'progressive Sword of Damocles' hanging overhead, and almost always descends into whatabout-whataboutism. I really do hope that we eventually grow out of this phase and acknowledge that even the 'good guys' can be evil, we shouldn't need to wait and see a Communist Reich to know that the Leftist version of brownshirts are a bad thing, or wait until actual genocide is happening (or accept/ignore it as a possibility, even) or wait until it has a 1-to-1 mapping with Nazi atrocity to hold those kinds of behavior accountable just because they're not Nazis and they're not actually killing people.
    - vkou 5y ago
      > I really do hope that we eventually grow out of this phase and acknowledge that even the 'good guys' can be evil, we shouldn't need to wait and see a Communist Reich to know that the Leftist version of brownshirts are a bad thing, or wait until actual genocide is happening (or accept/ignore it as a possibility, even) or wait until it has a 1-to-1 mapping with Nazi atrocity to hold those kinds of behavior accountable just because they're not Nazis and they're not actually killing people. Having looked at 2020, the threat of the United States going in this direction is not coming from some unholy trinity of the ghosts of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Trotsky. As a political idea in the public zeitgheist, it's dead as a parrot. It has no legs. It's coming from the mainstream right. But since our friendly neighbourhood MAGA rallies aren't actually sieging and heiling, we're all in the 'wait and see how bad it can get the next time they take power' stage.
guerrilla 5y ago
It sounds like you might be ignorant of the anarchist vs. state socialist divide which has existed since 1872. [1] At every opportunity, state socialists have suppressed or outright killed anarchists, especially in the USSR. [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_A... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Russia#In_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Russia#In_the_Sov...
adg001 5y ago
> Speaking of which (and continuing to troll)-- anyone know why the lower-case "other leftists" in Barcelona boxed up the photographic evidence of their existence and sent it to the UK instead of the USSR for safekeeping[2]? I mean if the forces against fascism were "Communists, Etcetera" why not send them there? You are confusing Communism in Western Europe with the communist state of the USSR and its Stalinist doctrine of socialism in one country [3]. The Belgian Marxist economist Ernest Mandel argues in "From Stalinism to Eurocommunism: The Bitter Fruits of 'Socialism in One Country'" that when Soviet Union in 1924 abandoned the goal of overthrowing capitalism around the world lead to development of what later was called Eurocommunism [4], with their democratic way to social reforms. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_one_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_one_country [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocommunism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocommunism
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  > You are confusing Communism in Western Europe with the communist state of the USSR and its Stalinist doctrine of socialism in one country They really aren't. The Communists fighting in the Spanish Civil War -- the ones who put their boot down on Orwell's beloved POUM and other Trotskyists -- were honest-to-god Soviets. But yes, more democratic "Communist" parties did exist in Western Europe later, and there is a large space of "third way" Socialisms and Communisms that are not Stalinist hell.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    I don't have my copy of Homage to hand, but I seem to remember Orwell being in the POUM militia was more or less an accident of how he arrived in Spain and nothing to do with it being 'beloved'. As an aside, I once met a Spanish Civil War veteran from South Wales. I got the impression that he went to fight the fascists because it was the right thing to do ('If you tolerate this then your children will be next' was a famous slogan that made it into a song), not because of ideological indoctrination. He was a socialist in the British sense, but that should not suggest the slightest parallel with Stalinism
- csee 5y ago

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I think you might be too strongly associating 'USSR' and 'communist'. They're intertwined but not identical.

Smoosh 5y ago
The same thing happens with Fascism and the Nazis.

sorokod 5y ago

Well, Orwell was one of those "leftist" and did write "Animal Farm". BTW the photos in your second link are fantastic! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell#Spanish_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell#Spanish_Civil_Wa...

memonkey 5y ago
Isaac Asimov wrote a great critique on 1984 which includes a few thoughts on Animal Farm: http://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htm http://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htm
- michannne 5y ago
  It seems evident, to me at least, that Asimov views "arms-length extremism" as a core part of the identity of upper case Leftism, at least in the West (and predominantly America). The way Asimov approaches 1984 appears to be the bog-standard "Well, if you're not a Nazi then you can't possibly be as evil as the Nazis". It betrays a view of looking at politics from a standpoint of a slope, rather than a hill that descends into immorality on both sides, and I'm sure Asimov derives that view (as does much of the modern world) from the reasons behind and outcomes of WWII. IMO, we still haven't gotten past this - even entertaining such a discussion can't be had without acknowledging the 'progressive Sword of Damocles' hanging overhead, and almost always descends into whatabout-whataboutism. I really do hope that we eventually grow out of this phase and acknowledge that even the 'good guys' can be evil, we shouldn't need to wait and see a Communist Reich to know that the Leftist version of brownshirts are a bad thing, or wait until actual genocide is happening (or accept/ignore it as a possibility, even) or wait until it has a 1-to-1 mapping with Nazi atrocity to hold those kinds of behavior accountable just because they're not Nazis and they're not actually killing people.
  - vkou 5y ago
    > I really do hope that we eventually grow out of this phase and acknowledge that even the 'good guys' can be evil, we shouldn't need to wait and see a Communist Reich to know that the Leftist version of brownshirts are a bad thing, or wait until actual genocide is happening (or accept/ignore it as a possibility, even) or wait until it has a 1-to-1 mapping with Nazi atrocity to hold those kinds of behavior accountable just because they're not Nazis and they're not actually killing people. Having looked at 2020, the threat of the United States going in this direction is not coming from some unholy trinity of the ghosts of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Trotsky. As a political idea in the public zeitgheist, it's dead as a parrot. It has no legs. It's coming from the mainstream right. But since our friendly neighbourhood MAGA rallies aren't actually sieging and heiling, we're all in the 'wait and see how bad it can get the next time they take power' stage.

guerrilla 5y ago

It sounds like you might be ignorant of the anarchist vs. state socialist divide which has existed since 1872. [1] At every opportunity, state socialists have suppressed or outright killed anarchists, especially in the USSR. [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_A... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Russia#In_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Russia#In_the_Sov...

adg001 5y ago

> Speaking of which (and continuing to troll)-- anyone know why the lower-case "other leftists" in Barcelona boxed up the photographic evidence of their existence and sent it to the UK instead of the USSR for safekeeping[2]? I mean if the forces against fascism were "Communists, Etcetera" why not send them there? You are confusing Communism in Western Europe with the communist state of the USSR and its Stalinist doctrine of socialism in one country [3]. The Belgian Marxist economist Ernest Mandel argues in "From Stalinism to Eurocommunism: The Bitter Fruits of 'Socialism in One Country'" that when Soviet Union in 1924 abandoned the goal of overthrowing capitalism around the world lead to development of what later was called Eurocommunism [4], with their democratic way to social reforms. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_one_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_one_country [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocommunism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocommunism

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
> You are confusing Communism in Western Europe with the communist state of the USSR and its Stalinist doctrine of socialism in one country They really aren't. The Communists fighting in the Spanish Civil War -- the ones who put their boot down on Orwell's beloved POUM and other Trotskyists -- were honest-to-god Soviets. But yes, more democratic "Communist" parties did exist in Western Europe later, and there is a large space of "third way" Socialisms and Communisms that are not Stalinist hell.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  I don't have my copy of Homage to hand, but I seem to remember Orwell being in the POUM militia was more or less an accident of how he arrived in Spain and nothing to do with it being 'beloved'. As an aside, I once met a Spanish Civil War veteran from South Wales. I got the impression that he went to fight the fascists because it was the right thing to do ('If you tolerate this then your children will be next' was a famous slogan that made it into a song), not because of ideological indoctrination. He was a socialist in the British sense, but that should not suggest the slightest parallel with Stalinism
csee 5y ago