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CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itsel
by avazhi 5y ago
CSAM is, by definition, photography or videography of something that has already happened. Therefore, quite literally, doing absolutely nothing about CSAM itself would result in no harm to any child, as the harm has already occurred.
Now you're probably going to then cry about incentivising or normalising CSAM - but that's a different argument. And if you then try to argue that the normalisation of CSAM would somehow encourage people to abuse children, well then you're really off into the zero-evidence weeds. Go look at porn research (the actual Google Scholar/JSTOR/Elsevier kind), and you'll see that almost everybody who looks at porn neither wants to nor would actually do what they see in porn, if they were given the opportunity. Surprise, surprise, most people wouldn't actually get gangbanged/bukkake'd/fucked by their sibling, mom, dad, grandpa/pooped on by their next door bespectacled red-headed neighbour, etc.
Nor is there any evidence that inadvertently coming across CSAM turns people into pedophiles (news flash: pedos were turned on by kids long before they were ever exposed to CSAM on the internet), and porn itself is almost invariably used for fantasy or as something wholly unrealistic that people get off to precisely because it's unrealistic. Even though it might be unsavoury to do so, we could follow this reasoning to its extreme but undoubtedly true conclusion and state that there are individuals who get off to CSAM notwithstanding that they would never themselves abuse children.
So to recap, 0 children would be saved from harm because the CSAM itself is ex post facto; it wouldn't de-incentivise CSAM because the demand and markets for CSAM and pedophilia existed long before the internet was a thing, and pedophiles will find avenues around dumbass implementations like Apple's scanning (TOR, anyone? not using an iPhone/Mac?); and, finally, just because somebody looks at CSAM doesn't mean they're an actual pedo or would ever harm children themselves. The fact that possession of such material is illegal is not to the point - Apple is not the police, and the police and other executive agencies need warrants for this kind of thing (in common law countries this notion is more than 400 years old).
Meanwhile, we know the false positive risks are not insignificant - look at the white papers yourself, or just look at the numbers that smart people have crunched. The best part is that even though Apple says the false positive rate is 1 in a trillion accounts, people's photo libraries are exactly the sort of thing you can't extrapolate statistically. Maybe your Aunt June really likes photos of her nephews in the pool, and she's got a library with 300 photos of her nephews half naked and swimming when they visited her last year. Apple has no fucking clue whether they would or would not trigger its scanner, because it currently does not have access to Aunt June's unique photos to test vs its database. Apple quite literally doesn't know what the fuck will happen. I and many others find that abhorrent when you consider the effect that even the mere accusation of pedophilia has on a person's life. And that isn't even to start the discussion of what kind of precedent on-device scanning would set for other subjects (political and religious dissent, for example - if not in America then in places like China).
Apple and everybody else can fuck right off with this Orwellian shit.
- cmckn 5y agoI’ve worked jobs in which I was exposed to this content regularly. It’s disturbing, sometimes extremely so. Just because someone does not abuse a child after viewing this content does not mean the content causes no harm to either individuals or our society at large. I don’t want to live in a world where CSAM is tolerated in order to keep pedophiles satiated.
- omginternets 5y ago[Redacted because avazhi said it better.]
- avazhi 5y agoFirst you couched your position as being about the children and harm to children; now you're talking about - as best I can tell - psychological harm to society writ large which you're asserting would occur based on your own experience. The part about CSAM being tolerated in order to keep pedos satiated seems like a non sequitur but honestly I don't really understand what you're trying to say, so... it doesn't sound like a very good faith discussion to me. I do hope you get whatever support you need for something that's apparently affected you. Take care.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rootusrootus 5y ago> the harm has already occurred Circulating images of a minor child engaged in sexual abuse do not constitute an ongoing harm to that child? That's a fascinating viewpoint. > Apple and everybody else can fuck right off with this Orwellian shit. Right along with people who think child abuse images should be okay to keep as long as you aren't the one who made them.
- avazhi 5y agoFirst, no, I don't think continued circulation ex post is comparable to the harm that occurs at the time the abuse physically occurs. My own view is that whatever feelings flow from knowing that the images are 'circulating' isn't harm at all. Less personally, lingering negative effects from some event in the form of flashbacks or unpleasant memories are not new instances of harm as a matter of law (for whatever that's worth), and I think it goes beyond straining common sense to use the term 'harm' in that way. But let's assume you're right. You think that pedophiles won't find ways to share content even if every tech company in the world implemented this? You think pedophiles don't and won't have terabytes of child porn backed up on hard disks around the world that will be distributed and circulate for the next millennium and beyond, even if it has to be carried around on USBs or burned to CDs (which aren't exactly amenable to CSAM scanning), and then saved to offline computers? Put another way, even if the internet shut down tomorrow, plenty of pedophiles around the world would continue jacking off to those images and sharing them with their buddies - you don't need the internet for that. Further, even if you could convince me that it's harmful in the sense that I understand the word, I'm not sure I'd ever be persuaded that the amount of harm could be sufficient to outweigh the harms that would result from the scanning itself. Happy to listen, though.