7 ms·

Interesting mentioning Latin America and Chile here, Friedman was a big fan of Pinochet in Chile, as Pinochet implemented Friedman's ideas by torturing, killing

Interesting mentioning Latin America and Chile here, Friedman was a big fan of Pinochet in Chile, as Pinochet implemented Friedman's ideas by torturing, killing, and disappearing thousands, all under the guise of of stopping inflation.

newacount 5y ago
[flagged]
drno123 5y ago
I think we need to separate Pinochet’s dictatorship from Pinochet’s economic policies. Economic growth of Chile (and as a result of that, improved living conditions for its citizens) are the result of Pinochet’s economic policies. He could have implemented those without killing his political opponents.
- stevebmark 5y ago
  Dictatorship and suppression of democracy, and Friedman's free market economic policies, are inextricably linked. Pinochet could not have implemented his free market ideas without oppression, because there will always be more poor people than rich, and poor people will always vote for worker protections, price controls, stable jobs and housing. This is openly part of Friedman's plan: His policies are best implemented when a country is in a time of crisis, when the population is worn down and can't resist. The increase in poverty, slums, and the country's stadium turned into a torture center, don't feel like improved living conditions to me, nor worth the price of stopping inflation (which Pinochet did).
  - drno123 5y ago
    To be honest, I do not see any difference in torture done by Castro’s leftists from the torture done by Pinochet’s “rightists”. At least after Pinochet Chile was left a prosperous country, while under Castro, people were risking their lives while to get away from Cuba into US.
    - stevebmark 5y ago
      I personally don't have enough economic experience to definitively say if Friedman's far right free market ideas are inherently bad (except for the super elite), nor can I definitively say left ideas of socialism and government infrastructure inherently better. The significant difference I see is that democracies tend not to produce free market economies, and Friedman is open about his policies taking advantage of crises to help enforce them and foist them on an otherwise willing country.
    - disambiguation 5y ago
      not sure why you're getting downvoted, it's a good parallel however, i'm gonna push back on the idea that people were fleeing cuba because of castro's economics versus the US sanctions that crippled the economy
smnrchrds 5y ago
From the video: "In the famous case of Chile with Mr. Allende in power, he produced an inflation which was one of the major factors that caused the economic catastrophe that led to the replacement of his government by a military dictatorship." It seems like Friedman in myopically focusing on economics of Chile, while the real reason for the coup was something entirely different. The real lesson here is not to take history lessons from economists.
WalterBright 5y ago
Pinochet certainly did not implement Friedman's ideas.
- stevebmark 5y ago
  https://genius.com/Milton-friedman-letter-to-president-augusto-pinochet-annotated https://genius.com/Milton-friedman-letter-to-president-augus...
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Remarkable how that letter is twisted into being a "big fan" of Pinochet and endorsing his violent behavior.
    - stevebmark 5y ago
      It's remarkable how many of the "Chicago Boys" who helped deregulate the Chilean economy as part of Pinochet's dictatorship studied directly under Milton Friedman. It's remarkable Friedman referred to the whole ordeal as the "Chilean Miracle." I have no belief that Friedman ever directly endorsed the violence his policies often thrive in. Friedman did intentionally take advantage of crises, and pushed others to do the same, to enforce his unpopular ideas. It's remarkable that he got chummy with the dictator who bombed his own country, supported by the CIA. It's remarkable the CIA, out of fear of socialism spreading in Chile and the US losing its investments there (aka, wanting free market policies), supported the junta, and the Chicago Boys. > Committee witnesses maintain that some of the Chicago boys received CIA funds for such research efforts as a 300-page economic blueprint that was given to military leaders before the coup. To say that Friedman didn't endorse the violent behavior directly is a technicality.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        All Friedman did was give Pinochet some advice on how to improve the Chilean economy, as you can see in the only evidence you've provided - the letter to Pinochet. The rest of those inferences are unfounded.
rmbyrro 5y ago
> Pinochet implemented Friedman's ideas by torturing, killing, and disappearing thousands Source for Friedman's suggestions to "torture, kill, and disappear thousands"?
disambiguation 5y ago
next you're going to tell me socialism is bad because of the Nazis! kidding aside, Chile has one of the most successful south american economies to date, and it's mainly thanks to their monetary discipline as advocated by the Chicago school.
- stevebmark 5y ago
  The largest company in Chile is the copper mining company Codelco, which is the largest copper producer in the world. It's 100% state owned. There's also the state owned energy and oil company ENAP. Pinochet's Friedman experiment failed so strongly that Pinochet was forced to nationalize parts of the financial sector. Kidding aside, Friedman and Pinochet did not bolster Chile's economy.
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    Chile today has the 2nd largest GDP in south america and is comparable in economic freedom to South Korea. Consider their cousin Venezuela that also has nationalized resource industries but has otherwise promoted policies contrary to Friedman's advice. As a result they have economic conditions comparable to North Korea. To say Chile's economic success is only due to nationalization of industry is inconsistent with the outcome.

newacount 5y ago

[flagged]

drno123 5y ago

I think we need to separate Pinochet’s dictatorship from Pinochet’s economic policies. Economic growth of Chile (and as a result of that, improved living conditions for its citizens) are the result of Pinochet’s economic policies. He could have implemented those without killing his political opponents.

stevebmark 5y ago
Dictatorship and suppression of democracy, and Friedman's free market economic policies, are inextricably linked. Pinochet could not have implemented his free market ideas without oppression, because there will always be more poor people than rich, and poor people will always vote for worker protections, price controls, stable jobs and housing. This is openly part of Friedman's plan: His policies are best implemented when a country is in a time of crisis, when the population is worn down and can't resist. The increase in poverty, slums, and the country's stadium turned into a torture center, don't feel like improved living conditions to me, nor worth the price of stopping inflation (which Pinochet did).
- drno123 5y ago
  To be honest, I do not see any difference in torture done by Castro’s leftists from the torture done by Pinochet’s “rightists”. At least after Pinochet Chile was left a prosperous country, while under Castro, people were risking their lives while to get away from Cuba into US.
  - stevebmark 5y ago
    I personally don't have enough economic experience to definitively say if Friedman's far right free market ideas are inherently bad (except for the super elite), nor can I definitively say left ideas of socialism and government infrastructure inherently better. The significant difference I see is that democracies tend not to produce free market economies, and Friedman is open about his policies taking advantage of crises to help enforce them and foist them on an otherwise willing country.
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    not sure why you're getting downvoted, it's a good parallel however, i'm gonna push back on the idea that people were fleeing cuba because of castro's economics versus the US sanctions that crippled the economy

smnrchrds 5y ago

From the video: "In the famous case of Chile with Mr. Allende in power, he produced an inflation which was one of the major factors that caused the economic catastrophe that led to the replacement of his government by a military dictatorship." It seems like Friedman in myopically focusing on economics of Chile, while the real reason for the coup was something entirely different. The real lesson here is not to take history lessons from economists.

WalterBright 5y ago

Pinochet certainly did not implement Friedman's ideas.

stevebmark 5y ago
https://genius.com/Milton-friedman-letter-to-president-augusto-pinochet-annotated https://genius.com/Milton-friedman-letter-to-president-augus...
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Remarkable how that letter is twisted into being a "big fan" of Pinochet and endorsing his violent behavior.
  - stevebmark 5y ago
    It's remarkable how many of the "Chicago Boys" who helped deregulate the Chilean economy as part of Pinochet's dictatorship studied directly under Milton Friedman. It's remarkable Friedman referred to the whole ordeal as the "Chilean Miracle." I have no belief that Friedman ever directly endorsed the violence his policies often thrive in. Friedman did intentionally take advantage of crises, and pushed others to do the same, to enforce his unpopular ideas. It's remarkable that he got chummy with the dictator who bombed his own country, supported by the CIA. It's remarkable the CIA, out of fear of socialism spreading in Chile and the US losing its investments there (aka, wanting free market policies), supported the junta, and the Chicago Boys. > Committee witnesses maintain that some of the Chicago boys received CIA funds for such research efforts as a 300-page economic blueprint that was given to military leaders before the coup. To say that Friedman didn't endorse the violent behavior directly is a technicality.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      All Friedman did was give Pinochet some advice on how to improve the Chilean economy, as you can see in the only evidence you've provided - the letter to Pinochet. The rest of those inferences are unfounded.

rmbyrro 5y ago

> Pinochet implemented Friedman's ideas by torturing, killing, and disappearing thousands Source for Friedman's suggestions to "torture, kill, and disappear thousands"?

disambiguation 5y ago

next you're going to tell me socialism is bad because of the Nazis! kidding aside, Chile has one of the most successful south american economies to date, and it's mainly thanks to their monetary discipline as advocated by the Chicago school.

stevebmark 5y ago
The largest company in Chile is the copper mining company Codelco, which is the largest copper producer in the world. It's 100% state owned. There's also the state owned energy and oil company ENAP. Pinochet's Friedman experiment failed so strongly that Pinochet was forced to nationalize parts of the financial sector. Kidding aside, Friedman and Pinochet did not bolster Chile's economy.
- disambiguation 5y ago
  Chile today has the 2nd largest GDP in south america and is comparable in economic freedom to South Korea. Consider their cousin Venezuela that also has nationalized resource industries but has otherwise promoted policies contrary to Friedman's advice. As a result they have economic conditions comparable to North Korea. To say Chile's economic success is only due to nationalization of industry is inconsistent with the outcome.