4 ms·

Well other than the proposal specifically outlined in this post, that is. (Pardon if I missed the sarcasm)

nyanpasu64 5y ago
I tested OCR with Wi-Fi disabled and it still functions. Is Visual Look Up (and Live Text) purely offline, phoning home with CSAM reports, or an offline preview of future technology which phones home with CSAM reports?
nojito 5y ago
Everything is done on device. Which is different than others who choose to do scanning on their servers.
- tylersmith 5y ago
  And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? Otherwise there's literally no point.
  - JimDabell 5y ago
    > And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? No. The logic was never “if there’s a match the image is uploaded”. The device never knows if there’s a match. Under the process Apple described, an extra packet of data is attached to every iCloud upload. If there are enough matches, Apple can decode those packets to get a low-res thumbnail, which they then check against a second perceptual hash. The process doesn’t work on arbitrary images on your device, it’s specifically designed for iCloud uploads.
    - agildehaus 5y ago
      Why can't they just scan iCloud uploads on-server then? Why does anything need to be done on-device?
      - xanaxagoras 5y ago
        The theory is they were going to use this tech to finally enable E2EE iCloud Photos and reactionary privacy absolutist psychopaths who didn't understand how it works -- such as myself -- made a big ruckus and spoiled everything. Also at the point that the image hash matches, Apple thinks it is CSAM (and it probably is). Doing it locally lets them avoid storing it, which they definitely do not want to do.
      - JimDabell 5y ago
        This scheme is obviously designed to work when Apple has no direct access to the photos. Because of this, there is a lot of speculation that Apple plans on making iCloud photos encrypted. This scheme would continue to work in that situation, whereas the on-server approach would fail. However that’s just speculation, Apple haven’t announced anything.
        modeless 5y ago
        That speculation is pretty out there considering that there have been no barriers to them doing true end-to-end encryption of iMessage backups, but they have chosen not to for many years despite marketing iMessage as "end-to-end" encrypted. Reportedly at the direct request of the FBI. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
      - Spooky23 5y ago
        They almost certainly do. Every major provider does, and even some enterprises. The whole point of the CSAM stuff was that it would allow for end to end encryption while not turning Apple’s ecosystem into preferred tool of child pornographers. Apple poorly communicated the feature, then the EFF put out a deliberately misguided written hitpiece that conflated parental controls with CSAM, and started an online freak out. The “privacy activists” won, and your data is sitting on Apple servers with Apple’s managed encryption keys outside of your control today.
        5y ago
    - xanaxagoras 5y ago
      So in reply to your parent, the answer is yes. It sends a low resolution copy of the image to Apple with extra steps.
      - JimDabell 5y ago
        No. Look at the context of this discussion. Somebody starts off by asking: > Does macOS 12.3 and beyond phone home with details of images and documents you open in Preview? There is no similar context with Apple’s previous CSAM scheme. The device is unable to check for a match and then upload the photo if there’s a match. The scheme only works because it operates on iCloud uploads.
        xanaxagoras 5y ago
        That's a fair point. In my mind I was immediately transported to the CSAM/NeuralHash debate from last year. I will slow down.

I tested OCR with Wi-Fi disabled and it still functions. Is Visual Look Up (and Live Text) purely offline, phoning home with CSAM reports, or an offline preview of future technology which phones home with CSAM reports?

nojito 5y ago

Everything is done on device. Which is different than others who choose to do scanning on their servers.

tylersmith 5y ago
And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? Otherwise there's literally no point.
- JimDabell 5y ago
  > And if the filter thinks the image is positive for CSAM it sends it to Apple, correct? No. The logic was never “if there’s a match the image is uploaded”. The device never knows if there’s a match. Under the process Apple described, an extra packet of data is attached to every iCloud upload. If there are enough matches, Apple can decode those packets to get a low-res thumbnail, which they then check against a second perceptual hash. The process doesn’t work on arbitrary images on your device, it’s specifically designed for iCloud uploads.
  - agildehaus 5y ago
    Why can't they just scan iCloud uploads on-server then? Why does anything need to be done on-device?
    - xanaxagoras 5y ago
      The theory is they were going to use this tech to finally enable E2EE iCloud Photos and reactionary privacy absolutist psychopaths who didn't understand how it works -- such as myself -- made a big ruckus and spoiled everything. Also at the point that the image hash matches, Apple thinks it is CSAM (and it probably is). Doing it locally lets them avoid storing it, which they definitely do not want to do.
    - JimDabell 5y ago
      This scheme is obviously designed to work when Apple has no direct access to the photos. Because of this, there is a lot of speculation that Apple plans on making iCloud photos encrypted. This scheme would continue to work in that situation, whereas the on-server approach would fail. However that’s just speculation, Apple haven’t announced anything.
      - modeless 5y ago
        That speculation is pretty out there considering that there have been no barriers to them doing true end-to-end encryption of iMessage backups, but they have chosen not to for many years despite marketing iMessage as "end-to-end" encrypted. Reportedly at the direct request of the FBI. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
    - Spooky23 5y ago
      They almost certainly do. Every major provider does, and even some enterprises. The whole point of the CSAM stuff was that it would allow for end to end encryption while not turning Apple’s ecosystem into preferred tool of child pornographers. Apple poorly communicated the feature, then the EFF put out a deliberately misguided written hitpiece that conflated parental controls with CSAM, and started an online freak out. The “privacy activists” won, and your data is sitting on Apple servers with Apple’s managed encryption keys outside of your control today.
      - 5y ago
  - xanaxagoras 5y ago
    So in reply to your parent, the answer is yes. It sends a low resolution copy of the image to Apple with extra steps.
    - JimDabell 5y ago
      No. Look at the context of this discussion. Somebody starts off by asking: > Does macOS 12.3 and beyond phone home with details of images and documents you open in Preview? There is no similar context with Apple’s previous CSAM scheme. The device is unable to check for a match and then upload the photo if there’s a match. The scheme only works because it operates on iCloud uploads.
      - xanaxagoras 5y ago
        That's a fair point. In my mind I was immediately transported to the CSAM/NeuralHash debate from last year. I will slow down.