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I think about this a lot too. My grandmother had an interest in it as well and studied the history of the British kings for an answer (she was a teacher in Indi

I think about this a lot too. My grandmother had an interest in it as well and studied the history of the British kings for an answer (she was a teacher in India). In my own readings, it seems that at the time of the Roman conquest, Brittania was a backwater of illiterate (in the Roman conception) ugly brutes. It was only after three conquests by the first the Romans (who left), then the Anglo-Saxons, then the Normans, that the British had a chance of mattering in the world in any meaningful sense. It was only after the Normans in England became differentiated from the Normans in Normandy, marrying the locals and speaking the local language that something like Britain emerged. I think (pardon the non-sequitor) that the key to all of this is theft. The British elite, for almost a thousand years after the Norman conquest still had their children learn French and acculturate to French norms of the elite. The Romans did much the same stealing copiously from the Greeks. So for that matter, did the Arabic civilizations. And America stole copiously from all of them. Rather, you might call it learning and extending the achievements of the past, often the achievements of those who conquered you, often of those you have conquered.

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rayiner 5y ago
You might be on to something with “stealing.” A remarkable thing about Western European culture, to me, is that it’s a fusion of a middle eastern religion with a Roman (mediterranean) civil society. The Bible, even the New Testament, is all about middle eastern people. What other culture subscribes to a religion which is centered on some other ethnic group, and their own is mentioned only peripherally?
- tptacek 5y ago
  The ethnicity of biblical people is mentioned only peripherally in European Christian practice. Actual representation of the ethnicity of people in the Levant is a trivia question, an amusing aside in Western Christianity; Jesus is blonde. I'm just saying, don't run too far down that line of thought.
- eesmith 5y ago
  > Buddhism is the dominant religion in Bhutan, Myanmar, Cambodia, Mainland China, Hong Kong,[5] Japan,[6] Tibet, Laos, Macau,[7] Mongolia, Singapore,[8] Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Kalmykia and Vietnam.[9] Large Buddhist populations live in North Korea, Nepal, India and South Korea. China is the country with the largest population of Buddhists, approximately 244 million or 18.2% of its total population. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_by_country How many ethnic groups do you reckon that to be? > Islam is the largest religion in Indonesia, with 86.7% of the Indonesian population identifying themselves as Muslim in a 2018 survey.[1][2] Indonesia is the most populous Muslim-majority country, with approximately 231 million adherents.[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia > A majority of the Javanese people identify themselves as Sunni Muslims - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_people > Today, most Sundanese are Sunni Muslims. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundanese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundanese_people > The majority of Madurese practice Sunni Islam. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurese_people How often is Indonesia mentioned in the Koran?
phatfish 5y ago
I didn't realise until recently (either I forgot it from history lessons at school, or it was glossed over in a way to diminish the French/Norman influence) how much the Norman conquest brought technological skill to England. The list of Cathedrals built by the Normans is impressive. Something the English alone could not do. The Norman period ended up transferring the best technology/skills from Europe to Britain. http://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/statements-in-stone-englands-norman-cathedrals/ http://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/statements-in-stone-engl...
- webmobdev 5y ago
  I remember reading an interesting article that asserted that Genghis Khan, the conqueror, considered Europe as a backward, shitty place not worthy of his attention. Since he and other foreign conquerors largely ignored them, Europe didn't face much external strife and conflict and it was also able to get access to science and knowledge from the more developed countries of the period (Genghis Khan cared about science, and ensured that all knowledge was collated and shared from all conquered regions, in his empire). This helped Europe develop unnoticed, at a much faster pace than other countries.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    Mongols raided Europe several times starting around the 1220s, but at that point they were overreaching. For example, they were defeated and pushed back during their campaigns in modern day Germany and Austria. Europe also faced the Umayyad invasion starting in the 8th century. > This helped Europe develop unnoticed, at a much faster pace than other countries. Many of the most important trading ports at the time were in Europe. How would they be “unnoticed”?
    - webmobdev 5y ago
      > Mongols raided Europe several times starting around the 1220s .. That was Genghis Khan's son and the Mongols conquered Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary and held control of Russia and Ukraine (interestingly, Genghis Khan conquered Russia in winter, something that neither Napolean nor Hitler could do). Compared to the wealth and culture of the developed kingdoms of that period, Europe didn't fascinate even his descendants. While some of them did plan to conquer Italy, Austria and Germany (after reaching up to Hungary), they abandoned the plan after the then "Great Khan" died, and they had to withdraw to decide on the next successor. Kublai Khan (grandson of Genghis Khan), for example, was more fascinated by China's wealth (said to be the richest empire of its time) and population, and spent his focus on conquering it. While Mongolian conquests were brutal, the peace in their empire allowed the silk road trade routes to be opened between aAsia and Europe. This allowed cultural exchanges and trade between them that led to Europe's progress. Land routes in Central Asia was instrumental in connecting Europe to Asia, and the peace in the Mongolian empire was instrumental in allowing trade to flourish. The sharing of knowledge and information was encouraged in the Mongolian empire and this also helped Europe get access to some fundamental technologies like paper making, printing, gunpowder manufacturing etc. that would have have a tremendous impact on humanity. > How would they be “unnoticed”? Their lack of wealth and development during that period didn't make them an attractive target for conquest.

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rayiner 5y ago

You might be on to something with “stealing.” A remarkable thing about Western European culture, to me, is that it’s a fusion of a middle eastern religion with a Roman (mediterranean) civil society. The Bible, even the New Testament, is all about middle eastern people. What other culture subscribes to a religion which is centered on some other ethnic group, and their own is mentioned only peripherally?

tptacek 5y ago
The ethnicity of biblical people is mentioned only peripherally in European Christian practice. Actual representation of the ethnicity of people in the Levant is a trivia question, an amusing aside in Western Christianity; Jesus is blonde. I'm just saying, don't run too far down that line of thought.
eesmith 5y ago
> Buddhism is the dominant religion in Bhutan, Myanmar, Cambodia, Mainland China, Hong Kong,[5] Japan,[6] Tibet, Laos, Macau,[7] Mongolia, Singapore,[8] Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Kalmykia and Vietnam.[9] Large Buddhist populations live in North Korea, Nepal, India and South Korea. China is the country with the largest population of Buddhists, approximately 244 million or 18.2% of its total population. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_by_country How many ethnic groups do you reckon that to be? > Islam is the largest religion in Indonesia, with 86.7% of the Indonesian population identifying themselves as Muslim in a 2018 survey.[1][2] Indonesia is the most populous Muslim-majority country, with approximately 231 million adherents.[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia > A majority of the Javanese people identify themselves as Sunni Muslims - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_people > Today, most Sundanese are Sunni Muslims. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundanese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundanese_people > The majority of Madurese practice Sunni Islam. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurese_people How often is Indonesia mentioned in the Koran?

phatfish 5y ago

I didn't realise until recently (either I forgot it from history lessons at school, or it was glossed over in a way to diminish the French/Norman influence) how much the Norman conquest brought technological skill to England. The list of Cathedrals built by the Normans is impressive. Something the English alone could not do. The Norman period ended up transferring the best technology/skills from Europe to Britain. http://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/statements-in-stone-englands-norman-cathedrals/ http://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/statements-in-stone-engl...

webmobdev 5y ago
I remember reading an interesting article that asserted that Genghis Khan, the conqueror, considered Europe as a backward, shitty place not worthy of his attention. Since he and other foreign conquerors largely ignored them, Europe didn't face much external strife and conflict and it was also able to get access to science and knowledge from the more developed countries of the period (Genghis Khan cared about science, and ensured that all knowledge was collated and shared from all conquered regions, in his empire). This helped Europe develop unnoticed, at a much faster pace than other countries.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  Mongols raided Europe several times starting around the 1220s, but at that point they were overreaching. For example, they were defeated and pushed back during their campaigns in modern day Germany and Austria. Europe also faced the Umayyad invasion starting in the 8th century. > This helped Europe develop unnoticed, at a much faster pace than other countries. Many of the most important trading ports at the time were in Europe. How would they be “unnoticed”?
  - webmobdev 5y ago
    > Mongols raided Europe several times starting around the 1220s .. That was Genghis Khan's son and the Mongols conquered Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary and held control of Russia and Ukraine (interestingly, Genghis Khan conquered Russia in winter, something that neither Napolean nor Hitler could do). Compared to the wealth and culture of the developed kingdoms of that period, Europe didn't fascinate even his descendants. While some of them did plan to conquer Italy, Austria and Germany (after reaching up to Hungary), they abandoned the plan after the then "Great Khan" died, and they had to withdraw to decide on the next successor. Kublai Khan (grandson of Genghis Khan), for example, was more fascinated by China's wealth (said to be the richest empire of its time) and population, and spent his focus on conquering it. While Mongolian conquests were brutal, the peace in their empire allowed the silk road trade routes to be opened between aAsia and Europe. This allowed cultural exchanges and trade between them that led to Europe's progress. Land routes in Central Asia was instrumental in connecting Europe to Asia, and the peace in the Mongolian empire was instrumental in allowing trade to flourish. The sharing of knowledge and information was encouraged in the Mongolian empire and this also helped Europe get access to some fundamental technologies like paper making, printing, gunpowder manufacturing etc. that would have have a tremendous impact on humanity. > How would they be “unnoticed”? Their lack of wealth and development during that period didn't make them an attractive target for conquest.