5 ms·

Abortions in Texas, guns in California, tickets in NYC... guess vigilante profiteering is the new legislative norm? Get citizens to snitch on each other to fill

Abortions in Texas, guns in California, tickets in NYC... guess vigilante profiteering is the new legislative norm? Get citizens to snitch on each other to fill your budget shortfalls.

tantalor 5y ago
False analogy. The Texas thing is a (idiotic) workaround for the fact that the state can't do anything about it.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Explain?
  - YawningAngel 5y ago
    It would not be legal for the state of Texas to do what it is encouraging private citizens to do in its stead
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      The potentially illegal/unconstitutional part of it is the prevention of abortions. Encouraging citizens to bounty hunt each other... that's the novelty that the other states are copying. These creepy "see something, say something" laws turn neighbor against neighbor, criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable, and turn passive observers into active enforcers for the sake of profit.
      - magicalist 5y ago
        > criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable Again, these situations are not comparable. Idling commercial vehicles are already disallowed, this program literally gives a cut of the fine the government is going to impose.
        technobabbler 5y ago
        Laws -- whether abortion or idling -- aren't some permanent unchangeable thing. They just cater to the whims of lawmakers and public opinion of the day. Idling wasn't always illegal in NYC either; somebody made it so, and then tacked on the bounty hunting in 2015. Preventing abortion may be illegal now, but probably won't be for much longer if the rigged Supreme Court gets its way. Still, that isn't a novelty. Control of abortion has been a partisan fight for decades. Idling just doesn't attract the same constitutional scrutiny (and why should it). The bounty hunting thing is an additional layer on top of that, however, and one that's relatively novel. It's why California copied it for the gun bounty.
  - lozenge 5y ago
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-abortion-law-unconventional-lawsuit-pro-life-roe-v-wade-heartbeat-six-weeks-11631471508 https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-abortion-law-unconvention...
- tejohnso 5y ago
  Why does it matter that the Texas thing is a workaround? That's just a technical detail. The point remains that in all those mentioned cases, the government is encouraging people to turn against one another. Sometimes resulting in violence, as indicated in the article. I feel like people are already becoming increasingly antagonistic toward one another, and this citizen enforcer trend is adding incentive in the wrong direction.
  - tantalor 5y ago
    She state can't enforce an abortion ban by itself; it depends on citizen enforcement. The state can enforce the emission law; citizen enforcement is not required.
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      Both these things can be true. Yes, Texas used citizen lawsuits as a workaround for something they couldn't themselves enforce without risking constitutional ire (for now). It's a legal sleight-of-hand that wins them bonus points with conservatives while buying time for the new Supreme Court to outlaw abortion. It's disgusting. At the same time, it is creepy for Texas, California, New York or any government to entice citizens to act as informers and tattle on each other. The social costs of that aren't just measured in less budgeting for meter maids, but also increasing social distrust between neighbors. These aren't mutually exclusive, just two complementary, nasty things happening in government. In all three cases, it mobilizes private citizens to factionalize against each other to fulfill some elitist agenda, creating legal conflict with a profit motive where there wasn't before. Sure, somebody might've rolled their eyes at an idling truck or silently viewed their aborting/gun-toting neighbor with contempt, but these laws encourage active interpersonal conflict in the name of the state, turning untrained citizens with no experience in de-escalation into deputy law enforcement.
      - tantalor 5y ago
        Under your logic, I should not call 911 if a building is on fire. What business is that of mine?
- rtlfe 5y ago
  > (idiotic) workaround for the fact that the state can't do anything about it. It's sort of the same thing in NYC. The city council resorts to citizen reports because they can't get NYPD to enforce the law.
sideeffffect 5y ago
Officious: Rise of the Busybody State https://www.amazon.com/Officious-Busybody-State-Josie-Appleton/dp/1785354205 https://www.amazon.com/Officious-Busybody-State-Josie-Applet... In Anglo-Saxon countries there is a new and distinctive form of state: the busybody state. This state is defined by an attachment to bureaucratic procedures for their own sake: the rule for the sake of a rule; the form for the sake of a form. Its insignias are the badge, the policy, the code and the procedure. The logic of the regulation is neither to represent an elite class interest, nor to serve the public, nor even to organise social relations with the greatest efficiency as with classic bureaucracy, but rather to represent regulation itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehTBd_XxMMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehTBd_XxMMM

Abortions in Texas, guns in California, tickets in NYC... guess vigilante profiteering is the new legislative norm? Get citizens to snitch on each other to fill your budget shortfalls.

tantalor 5y ago

False analogy. The Texas thing is a (idiotic) workaround for the fact that the state can't do anything about it.

technobabbler 5y ago
Explain?
- YawningAngel 5y ago
  It would not be legal for the state of Texas to do what it is encouraging private citizens to do in its stead
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    The potentially illegal/unconstitutional part of it is the prevention of abortions. Encouraging citizens to bounty hunt each other... that's the novelty that the other states are copying. These creepy "see something, say something" laws turn neighbor against neighbor, criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable, and turn passive observers into active enforcers for the sake of profit.
    - magicalist 5y ago
      > criminalizing behavior that would otherwise be considered acceptable Again, these situations are not comparable. Idling commercial vehicles are already disallowed, this program literally gives a cut of the fine the government is going to impose.
      - technobabbler 5y ago
        Laws -- whether abortion or idling -- aren't some permanent unchangeable thing. They just cater to the whims of lawmakers and public opinion of the day. Idling wasn't always illegal in NYC either; somebody made it so, and then tacked on the bounty hunting in 2015. Preventing abortion may be illegal now, but probably won't be for much longer if the rigged Supreme Court gets its way. Still, that isn't a novelty. Control of abortion has been a partisan fight for decades. Idling just doesn't attract the same constitutional scrutiny (and why should it). The bounty hunting thing is an additional layer on top of that, however, and one that's relatively novel. It's why California copied it for the gun bounty.
- lozenge 5y ago
  https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-abortion-law-unconventional-lawsuit-pro-life-roe-v-wade-heartbeat-six-weeks-11631471508 https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-abortion-law-unconvention...
tejohnso 5y ago
Why does it matter that the Texas thing is a workaround? That's just a technical detail. The point remains that in all those mentioned cases, the government is encouraging people to turn against one another. Sometimes resulting in violence, as indicated in the article. I feel like people are already becoming increasingly antagonistic toward one another, and this citizen enforcer trend is adding incentive in the wrong direction.
- tantalor 5y ago
  She state can't enforce an abortion ban by itself; it depends on citizen enforcement. The state can enforce the emission law; citizen enforcement is not required.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Both these things can be true. Yes, Texas used citizen lawsuits as a workaround for something they couldn't themselves enforce without risking constitutional ire (for now). It's a legal sleight-of-hand that wins them bonus points with conservatives while buying time for the new Supreme Court to outlaw abortion. It's disgusting. At the same time, it is creepy for Texas, California, New York or any government to entice citizens to act as informers and tattle on each other. The social costs of that aren't just measured in less budgeting for meter maids, but also increasing social distrust between neighbors. These aren't mutually exclusive, just two complementary, nasty things happening in government. In all three cases, it mobilizes private citizens to factionalize against each other to fulfill some elitist agenda, creating legal conflict with a profit motive where there wasn't before. Sure, somebody might've rolled their eyes at an idling truck or silently viewed their aborting/gun-toting neighbor with contempt, but these laws encourage active interpersonal conflict in the name of the state, turning untrained citizens with no experience in de-escalation into deputy law enforcement.
    - tantalor 5y ago
      Under your logic, I should not call 911 if a building is on fire. What business is that of mine?
rtlfe 5y ago
> (idiotic) workaround for the fact that the state can't do anything about it. It's sort of the same thing in NYC. The city council resorts to citizen reports because they can't get NYPD to enforce the law.

sideeffffect 5y ago

Officious: Rise of the Busybody State https://www.amazon.com/Officious-Busybody-State-Josie-Appleton/dp/1785354205 https://www.amazon.com/Officious-Busybody-State-Josie-Applet... In Anglo-Saxon countries there is a new and distinctive form of state: the busybody state. This state is defined by an attachment to bureaucratic procedures for their own sake: the rule for the sake of a rule; the form for the sake of a form. Its insignias are the badge, the policy, the code and the procedure. The logic of the regulation is neither to represent an elite class interest, nor to serve the public, nor even to organise social relations with the greatest efficiency as with classic bureaucracy, but rather to represent regulation itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehTBd_XxMMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehTBd_XxMMM