4 ms·

It doesn't matter how convincing the sales pitch is when the product is not actually for sale. One thing ARM and x86 got right that SPARC and POWER got wrong i

It doesn't matter how convincing the sales pitch is when the product is not actually for sale. One thing ARM and x86 got right that SPARC and POWER got wrong is widely-available machines available at reasonable prices. All the 'being right' in the world won't help if developers need a five-figure hardware budget to port to your platform. VMs don't cut it for bringup.

rwmj 5y ago
There's lots of RISC-V hardware these days, from embedded RV32 chips up to machines you can run Linux on. It's nothing at all like SPARC/POWER.
johndoe0815 5y ago
At least PowerPC machines were available for reasonable prices from Apple for about a decade - and Linux was quite well supported in addition to OS X. But with Motorola’s loss of interest in the PC and server market and IBM’s focus on processors for consoles, there was no future for Apple in the growing mobile market. After all, we’re still waiting for the G5 Powerbook :).
BirAdam 5y ago
$17 64 bit RISC-V https://linuxgizmos.com/17-sbc-runs-linux-on-allwinner-d1-risc-v-soc/ https://linuxgizmos.com/17-sbc-runs-linux-on-allwinner-d1-ri... $29 64 bit RISC-V in the same form factor as an RPi CM3 https://www.clockworkpi.com/product-page/copy-of-clockworkpi-core-r-01 https://www.clockworkpi.com/product-page/copy-of-clockworkpi... If you never look for it, you will believe it doesn’t exist. I was very skeptical of ARM back in the day thinking that it was great for crappy little iTrinkets and Androids but not for “real computing”. I was clearly wrong. I was very skeptical of RISC-V until I recently heard Jim Keller explain why RISC-V has a bright future. He was rather convincing. This is especially true given his track record of straight-up magical results. Looking at different RISC-V machines, I think that the greatest advantage is that it is simple and can therefore be optimized more easily than complex designs, and due to being open, it has very low cost which will encourage more eyes trying more and different optimizations. EDIT: Link to Jim Keller interview https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-with-jim-keller-laziest-person-at-tesla https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
- nnx 5y ago
  > I recently heard Jim Keller explain why RISC-V has a bright future Would like to hear it too. Can you share a link?
  - BirAdam 5y ago
    Updated my response to include a link to the transcription. The audio/video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFVDZeg4RVY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFVDZeg4RVY It’s actually important (if you’re not an engineer) to listen to the whole thing, because he drops knowledge all over the place.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Watching that was my best use of time in the past month. I watched at 1.5x speed.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  ARM has proven their place for real computing on Newton OS and Acorn Archimedes, no need to prove it again on crappy little iTrinkets and Androids. Where is a RISC-V doing “real computing” on a Acorn Archimedes like personal computer?
- tsmi 5y ago
  I agree mostly with Keller's take but I think he left of one key factor, the quality of the software tool chain. The x86 tool chains are amazing. They're practically black magic in the kinds of optimizations they can do. Honestly, I think they're a lot of what is keeping Intel competitive in performance. ARM tool chains are also very good. I think they're a lot of the reason behind why ARM can beat RISCV in code space and performance on equivalent class hardware because honestly, like Keller says, they're not all that different for common case software. But frankly x86 and ARM toolchains should dominate RISCV when we just consider the amount of person-hours that have been devoted to these tools. So for me the real question is, where are the resources that make RISCV toolchains competitive going to come from (and keep in mind x86 and ARM have open source toolchains too)? And, will these optimizations be made available to the public? If we see significant investment in the toolchains from the likes of Google, Apple and nVidia, or even Intel. ARM needs to be really worried.

rwmj 5y ago

There's lots of RISC-V hardware these days, from embedded RV32 chips up to machines you can run Linux on. It's nothing at all like SPARC/POWER.

johndoe0815 5y ago

At least PowerPC machines were available for reasonable prices from Apple for about a decade - and Linux was quite well supported in addition to OS X. But with Motorola’s loss of interest in the PC and server market and IBM’s focus on processors for consoles, there was no future for Apple in the growing mobile market. After all, we’re still waiting for the G5 Powerbook :).

BirAdam 5y ago

$17 64 bit RISC-V https://linuxgizmos.com/17-sbc-runs-linux-on-allwinner-d1-risc-v-soc/ https://linuxgizmos.com/17-sbc-runs-linux-on-allwinner-d1-ri... $29 64 bit RISC-V in the same form factor as an RPi CM3 https://www.clockworkpi.com/product-page/copy-of-clockworkpi-core-r-01 https://www.clockworkpi.com/product-page/copy-of-clockworkpi... If you never look for it, you will believe it doesn’t exist. I was very skeptical of ARM back in the day thinking that it was great for crappy little iTrinkets and Androids but not for “real computing”. I was clearly wrong. I was very skeptical of RISC-V until I recently heard Jim Keller explain why RISC-V has a bright future. He was rather convincing. This is especially true given his track record of straight-up magical results. Looking at different RISC-V machines, I think that the greatest advantage is that it is simple and can therefore be optimized more easily than complex designs, and due to being open, it has very low cost which will encourage more eyes trying more and different optimizations. EDIT: Link to Jim Keller interview https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-with-jim-keller-laziest-person-at-tesla https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...

nnx 5y ago
> I recently heard Jim Keller explain why RISC-V has a bright future Would like to hear it too. Can you share a link?
- BirAdam 5y ago
  Updated my response to include a link to the transcription. The audio/video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFVDZeg4RVY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFVDZeg4RVY It’s actually important (if you’re not an engineer) to listen to the whole thing, because he drops knowledge all over the place.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Watching that was my best use of time in the past month. I watched at 1.5x speed.
pjmlp 5y ago
ARM has proven their place for real computing on Newton OS and Acorn Archimedes, no need to prove it again on crappy little iTrinkets and Androids. Where is a RISC-V doing “real computing” on a Acorn Archimedes like personal computer?
tsmi 5y ago
I agree mostly with Keller's take but I think he left of one key factor, the quality of the software tool chain. The x86 tool chains are amazing. They're practically black magic in the kinds of optimizations they can do. Honestly, I think they're a lot of what is keeping Intel competitive in performance. ARM tool chains are also very good. I think they're a lot of the reason behind why ARM can beat RISCV in code space and performance on equivalent class hardware because honestly, like Keller says, they're not all that different for common case software. But frankly x86 and ARM toolchains should dominate RISCV when we just consider the amount of person-hours that have been devoted to these tools. So for me the real question is, where are the resources that make RISCV toolchains competitive going to come from (and keep in mind x86 and ARM have open source toolchains too)? And, will these optimizations be made available to the public? If we see significant investment in the toolchains from the likes of Google, Apple and nVidia, or even Intel. ARM needs to be really worried.