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> It is a colossal failure of imagination to think that without God people must believe nothing matters. I haven't ever talked to an unbeliever who believes no

> It is a colossal failure of imagination to think that without God people must believe nothing matters. I haven't ever talked to an unbeliever who believes nothing matters, though I've heard of nihilist philosophers. I suspect non-philosophers who believe in nihilism usually have something from which they're trying to escape; they're not being honest with themselves. Of course each moment matters - it's a time of lived experience for billions of people. On the other hand, as a Christian, I'm accustomed to thinking a lot about eternal destiny and how things will end up in an ultimate sense. For me, the idea of no God existing opens up a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness I find frightening to imagine -- it would mean when I die, there's nothing more for me; and when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, will anything that transpired previously matter at all? I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But Christianity is primarily about what to do with that guilt -- that God's son Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine, and he offers forgiveness to those who will trust him and call on his name. (And I'm sure you've heard that before.) So while I agree stuff matters right now even without belief in a God, for me the meaning of the past and present pale compared to what matters (if anything) in the eternity of time that lies ahead.

tasty_freeze 5y ago
Yes, I'm sure it is scary if you have lead your life assuming that there was a blissful afterlife. But you must recognize that that was Jesus' main selling point: follow me and you'll have eternal life. Judaism believed that when a person dies, they are simply gone. Yet somehow they found purpose and meaning and weren't frightened of a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness. > when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, Yup, just like the universe existed for 14B years before humans came along. > will anything that transpired previously matter at all? Here is a thought experiment I've heard before. Say I'm really rich and have a tropical paradise, and I invite you to spend a month there. "It'll be great!" I promise, so you come. When you arrive you find I'm actually a twisted genius. I have developed a pill which will completely reset your memory back exactly like it was 30 days prior. In front of you is a spinner which alternates between: "party" and "torture". I tell you, go ahead and spin. If it comes up on "party," you'll have the most amazing time for the month. You'll have private snorkling trips with Jacques Cousteau's grandson; you'll eat the finest food cooked by 5 star Michelin chef's I have flown in. Name your favorite bands and I'll arrange for them to fly in and perform for you. No expense will be spared to entertain you. But if you spin "torture", oh boy, it will be bad. Nothing that will leave a physical scar, mind you, thinks like waterboarding, being shocked by high voltages, capsacin injected into your urethra, etc. But at the end of 30 days, I'll give you a pill that will wipe any trace of memory from the previous 30 days, no PTSD or future nightmares. So the question is: does it matter if you spin "party" or "torture"? After all, in 30 days, there will be no memories nor after effects. I'm sure that just about everyone would pick party. Why does the choice matter? Even though the memory of the torture will be wiped out, while you are actually experiencing it it is very real suffering (or joy in the other case). To someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, the fact that all of our memories dissolve when we die (in the case of dementia, even before we die) and nothing outlives our body, the joy and suffering we experience in life matter. > ... sin ... Look up the definition of sin: transgression of God's moral law. As someone who doesn't believe in God, I also don't believe in sin. I believe some events are good and some are bad, but I don't believe in sin. I am consciously or unconsciously worried about upsetting God by transgression His laws to the exact same degree you are consciously or unconsciously worried about upsetting Odin for transgressing his wishes. I said originally I don't want to argue theology. I was just pointing out that non-believers are not nihilists, contrary to the claim of the person I was responding to. I have lots of thoughts about the other things you've written, but this doesn't seem like the right forum for them.
- silent_cal 5y ago
  Jews did not think that people were simply gone after death. Read about "Sheol", for example.
robbiep 5y ago
> On the other hand, as a Christian, I'm accustomed to thinking a lot about eternal destiny and how things will end up in an ultimate sense. For me, the idea of no God existing opens up a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness I find frightening to imagine -- it would mean when I die, there's nothing more for me; and when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, will anything that transpired previously matter at all? I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But that’s the thing, you’re completely failing to understand how a non-believer (speaking for myself) feels about there not being an afterlife. What you’ve said is not in any way how I feel - I die, but the actions and efforts and (hopefully) descendants I put out there go in to hopefully contribute positively, in this magical thing we call life; and even in still there, the bits of me continuing to be recycled in the universe. As someone who has had many psychedelic experiences my non-believer side still has a spiritual axis to it; I can’t believe we all get to walk into a place where everyone who’s ever died is cutting around alive again; and Jesus and some older dude who created the universe sit at the head of the table, but that doesn’t have to be true in order for a life to have meaning, and it’s a failure of imagination (and really, and I don’t mean this to belittle your faith, but ultimately an indoctrinated fear - you use the word yourself - that is- ‘frightening yawning chasm of emptiness’) to believe that unless that is the way it pans out then everything is pointless and people are subconsciously compensating or blocking out that fear because they’re sinners.
torbTurret 5y ago
“I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding.” This kind of quite literally holier-than-thou pretension is a large reason why, despite being raised religious, I want nothing to do with it today. Especially Christianity.
- TimTheTinker 5y ago
  > holier-than-thou pretension Could you elaborate? I certainly didn't mean to imply I'm any better than someone in the position I described. I'm as much guilty of sin as anyone else. I don't think it's pretentious either to say that all have sinned in some way or another. As Solzhenitsyn writes, the line between good and evil runs right through every human heart -- all are capable of great good and great evil.
  - torbTurret 5y ago
    The attractive option of atheism bit. Plenty of other reasons why someone would turn to atheism. Eg the massive occurrence/support/obfuscation of sex abuse in the Catholic Church.
    - TimTheTinker 5y ago
      Ah, understood. I didn't mean characterize atheists or conversions to atheism. It's just that from my own frame of reference, that's the most attractive aspect of atheism.
      - torbTurret 5y ago
        Misinterpreted on my end, then - nothing personal!
chevill 5y ago
>I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But Christianity is primarily about what to do with that guilt -- that God's son Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine, and he offers forgiveness to those who will trust him and call on his name. (And I'm sure you've heard that before.) Your comment and a lot of others seem to presuppose that atheists don't genuinely not believe in God, there must be some sort of rejection of a God that exists or some conscious/unconscious attempt to avoid taking responsibility for something. My not being a Christian is really simple. It has nothing to do with my ideas on the bible or morality in general. nothing to do with whether or not I'm a sinner (I agree with you and Christianity that everyone falls very short of moral perfection), it has nothing to do with my personal happiness or making it easier for me to sleep at night. I simply don't believe that supernatural events exist. Nothing I have heard, discussed, read, watched or experienced in my life has convinced me that supernatural things happen in a general sense or that the specific supernatural things that are essential to believing in Christianity have happened.

tasty_freeze 5y ago

Yes, I'm sure it is scary if you have lead your life assuming that there was a blissful afterlife. But you must recognize that that was Jesus' main selling point: follow me and you'll have eternal life. Judaism believed that when a person dies, they are simply gone. Yet somehow they found purpose and meaning and weren't frightened of a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness. > when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, Yup, just like the universe existed for 14B years before humans came along. > will anything that transpired previously matter at all? Here is a thought experiment I've heard before. Say I'm really rich and have a tropical paradise, and I invite you to spend a month there. "It'll be great!" I promise, so you come. When you arrive you find I'm actually a twisted genius. I have developed a pill which will completely reset your memory back exactly like it was 30 days prior. In front of you is a spinner which alternates between: "party" and "torture". I tell you, go ahead and spin. If it comes up on "party," you'll have the most amazing time for the month. You'll have private snorkling trips with Jacques Cousteau's grandson; you'll eat the finest food cooked by 5 star Michelin chef's I have flown in. Name your favorite bands and I'll arrange for them to fly in and perform for you. No expense will be spared to entertain you. But if you spin "torture", oh boy, it will be bad. Nothing that will leave a physical scar, mind you, thinks like waterboarding, being shocked by high voltages, capsacin injected into your urethra, etc. But at the end of 30 days, I'll give you a pill that will wipe any trace of memory from the previous 30 days, no PTSD or future nightmares. So the question is: does it matter if you spin "party" or "torture"? After all, in 30 days, there will be no memories nor after effects. I'm sure that just about everyone would pick party. Why does the choice matter? Even though the memory of the torture will be wiped out, while you are actually experiencing it it is very real suffering (or joy in the other case). To someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, the fact that all of our memories dissolve when we die (in the case of dementia, even before we die) and nothing outlives our body, the joy and suffering we experience in life matter. > ... sin ... Look up the definition of sin: transgression of God's moral law. As someone who doesn't believe in God, I also don't believe in sin. I believe some events are good and some are bad, but I don't believe in sin. I am consciously or unconsciously worried about upsetting God by transgression His laws to the exact same degree you are consciously or unconsciously worried about upsetting Odin for transgressing his wishes. I said originally I don't want to argue theology. I was just pointing out that non-believers are not nihilists, contrary to the claim of the person I was responding to. I have lots of thoughts about the other things you've written, but this doesn't seem like the right forum for them.

silent_cal 5y ago
Jews did not think that people were simply gone after death. Read about "Sheol", for example.

robbiep 5y ago

> On the other hand, as a Christian, I'm accustomed to thinking a lot about eternal destiny and how things will end up in an ultimate sense. For me, the idea of no God existing opens up a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness I find frightening to imagine -- it would mean when I die, there's nothing more for me; and when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, will anything that transpired previously matter at all? I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But that’s the thing, you’re completely failing to understand how a non-believer (speaking for myself) feels about there not being an afterlife. What you’ve said is not in any way how I feel - I die, but the actions and efforts and (hopefully) descendants I put out there go in to hopefully contribute positively, in this magical thing we call life; and even in still there, the bits of me continuing to be recycled in the universe. As someone who has had many psychedelic experiences my non-believer side still has a spiritual axis to it; I can’t believe we all get to walk into a place where everyone who’s ever died is cutting around alive again; and Jesus and some older dude who created the universe sit at the head of the table, but that doesn’t have to be true in order for a life to have meaning, and it’s a failure of imagination (and really, and I don’t mean this to belittle your faith, but ultimately an indoctrinated fear - you use the word yourself - that is- ‘frightening yawning chasm of emptiness’) to believe that unless that is the way it pans out then everything is pointless and people are subconsciously compensating or blocking out that fear because they’re sinners.

torbTurret 5y ago

“I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding.” This kind of quite literally holier-than-thou pretension is a large reason why, despite being raised religious, I want nothing to do with it today. Especially Christianity.

TimTheTinker 5y ago
> holier-than-thou pretension Could you elaborate? I certainly didn't mean to imply I'm any better than someone in the position I described. I'm as much guilty of sin as anyone else. I don't think it's pretentious either to say that all have sinned in some way or another. As Solzhenitsyn writes, the line between good and evil runs right through every human heart -- all are capable of great good and great evil.
- torbTurret 5y ago
  The attractive option of atheism bit. Plenty of other reasons why someone would turn to atheism. Eg the massive occurrence/support/obfuscation of sex abuse in the Catholic Church.
  - TimTheTinker 5y ago
    Ah, understood. I didn't mean characterize atheists or conversions to atheism. It's just that from my own frame of reference, that's the most attractive aspect of atheism.
    - torbTurret 5y ago
      Misinterpreted on my end, then - nothing personal!

chevill 5y ago

>I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But Christianity is primarily about what to do with that guilt -- that God's son Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine, and he offers forgiveness to those who will trust him and call on his name. (And I'm sure you've heard that before.) Your comment and a lot of others seem to presuppose that atheists don't genuinely not believe in God, there must be some sort of rejection of a God that exists or some conscious/unconscious attempt to avoid taking responsibility for something. My not being a Christian is really simple. It has nothing to do with my ideas on the bible or morality in general. nothing to do with whether or not I'm a sinner (I agree with you and Christianity that everyone falls very short of moral perfection), it has nothing to do with my personal happiness or making it easier for me to sleep at night. I simply don't believe that supernatural events exist. Nothing I have heard, discussed, read, watched or experienced in my life has convinced me that supernatural things happen in a general sense or that the specific supernatural things that are essential to believing in Christianity have happened.