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According to the article, the truck drivers act all indignant that they are not allowed to idle their trucks and that citizens can report that behavior and caus

by nayuki 5y ago

According to the article, the truck drivers act all indignant that they are not allowed to idle their trucks and that citizens can report that behavior and cause fines to be issued. Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle?

nullc 5y ago
> Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle? So ... they're just like 90% of the posters in any HN thread where driving in excess of the speed limit on the highway is discussed then?
- nayuki 5y ago
  The modern interpretation is that reducing speed limits by writing a number on a sign is much less effective than designing the road to feel more dangerous - narrower lanes, more turns, more obstacles nearby, etc.
hackernewds 5y ago
The protest makes sense if the law is not worthy of common sense. The law is not a great signal for morality or ethics -- see as an extreme example: segregation
worewood 5y ago
> operating a motor vehicle is a responsability and privilege Responsability yes, but a privilege? If public transport were abundant and pervasive everywhere in the world that would be true. Freedom of movement is a basic right and in a lot of places, you can not enjoy that right unless you have a car.
- mportela 5y ago
  Driving is a privilege in the sense that is isn't a right and can be suspended [1]. Also, NYC public system will take you almost everywhere. [1] https://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/suspensions-and-revocations https://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/suspensions-and-revocations
- ilammy 5y ago
  > you can not enjoy that right unless you have a car Most of the people were born with a pair of legs, which they can use to enjoy their natural freedom. A car is still a privilege for those, even if economics “require” them to own one.
gtm1260 5y ago
What I don't understand is that the truck drivers are here delivering packages to help the citizens! Like I want my amazon driver to not be harassed when delivering stuff to my house, and I want restaurants and business around me to be resupplied easily so I can go to them. The consequences you mention, feel more like a consequence of us demanding X amount of goods in our cities each day, and having no other infrastructure to get them there besides trucks, than the drivers individual malfeasance.
- foepys 5y ago
  I bet that your opinion will change really fast when there is almost constantly a diesel engine idling outside your window, polluting the air and generating literal smog in the winter.
  - baremetal 5y ago
    or your ability to procure goods dries up
afavour 5y ago
I’m against excessive engine idling as much as anyone but when I read about Amazon drivers being guilty of this it did make me stop. We already know they have insane targets each day and drivers are pushed to the limit enough that they piss in bottles. I imagine leaving the engine idling is a rational choice they’re making to be able to drive away quicker once that delivery is done. Yes it’s awful but they’re just responding to the incentives given.
- mFixman 5y ago
  If you are an Amazon driver and everyone else keeps engine running, then your results will always be below your peers unless you break the rules. If the city cracks down in idling then either Amazon will relax the targets or nobody will fulfill them.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  There’s definitely an element of hypocrisy in all this. I don’t think all the people that foisted paper straws on us have forgone Amazon deliveries. On the contrary I bet the demographic are disproportionate users.
- tzs 5y ago
  > I imagine leaving the engine idling is a rational choice they’re making to be able to drive away quicker once that delivery is done. Yes it’s awful but they’re just responding to the incentives given. There might also be mechanical reasons. First, according to what I've read stopping and then starting puts more overall wear on the vehicle than idling unless we are talking about a long time between the stop and start. Second, if they are going to spend all day alternating between short delivery stops and short drives to the next delivery they might have to worry about whether or not the battery would be able to handle all those starts. The short drives might not be enough to replenish the energy from the battery that was used for the start.
- franga2000 5y ago
  As others have said, this provides a counter-incentive, but more importantly: why can't we fix both? We wouldn't make stealing legal because some people do it out of desperation - we can keep stealing illegal and at the same time take measures to ensure people don't need to steal to survive. Same with this.

by nayuki 5y ago

nullc 5y ago

> Did these people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a responsibility and privilege, not an unlimited right, that their behavior has consequences for the general public (externalities like air pollution, collisions), and that they are required to follow the law when operating their vehicle? So ... they're just like 90% of the posters in any HN thread where driving in excess of the speed limit on the highway is discussed then?

nayuki 5y ago
The modern interpretation is that reducing speed limits by writing a number on a sign is much less effective than designing the road to feel more dangerous - narrower lanes, more turns, more obstacles nearby, etc.

hackernewds 5y ago

The protest makes sense if the law is not worthy of common sense. The law is not a great signal for morality or ethics -- see as an extreme example: segregation

worewood 5y ago

> operating a motor vehicle is a responsability and privilege Responsability yes, but a privilege? If public transport were abundant and pervasive everywhere in the world that would be true. Freedom of movement is a basic right and in a lot of places, you can not enjoy that right unless you have a car.

mportela 5y ago
Driving is a privilege in the sense that is isn't a right and can be suspended [1]. Also, NYC public system will take you almost everywhere. [1] https://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/suspensions-and-revocations https://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/suspensions-and-revocations
ilammy 5y ago
> you can not enjoy that right unless you have a car Most of the people were born with a pair of legs, which they can use to enjoy their natural freedom. A car is still a privilege for those, even if economics “require” them to own one.

gtm1260 5y ago

What I don't understand is that the truck drivers are here delivering packages to help the citizens! Like I want my amazon driver to not be harassed when delivering stuff to my house, and I want restaurants and business around me to be resupplied easily so I can go to them. The consequences you mention, feel more like a consequence of us demanding X amount of goods in our cities each day, and having no other infrastructure to get them there besides trucks, than the drivers individual malfeasance.

foepys 5y ago
I bet that your opinion will change really fast when there is almost constantly a diesel engine idling outside your window, polluting the air and generating literal smog in the winter.
- baremetal 5y ago
  or your ability to procure goods dries up

afavour 5y ago

I’m against excessive engine idling as much as anyone but when I read about Amazon drivers being guilty of this it did make me stop. We already know they have insane targets each day and drivers are pushed to the limit enough that they piss in bottles. I imagine leaving the engine idling is a rational choice they’re making to be able to drive away quicker once that delivery is done. Yes it’s awful but they’re just responding to the incentives given.

mFixman 5y ago
If you are an Amazon driver and everyone else keeps engine running, then your results will always be below your peers unless you break the rules. If the city cracks down in idling then either Amazon will relax the targets or nobody will fulfill them.
bradleyjg 5y ago
There’s definitely an element of hypocrisy in all this. I don’t think all the people that foisted paper straws on us have forgone Amazon deliveries. On the contrary I bet the demographic are disproportionate users.
tzs 5y ago
> I imagine leaving the engine idling is a rational choice they’re making to be able to drive away quicker once that delivery is done. Yes it’s awful but they’re just responding to the incentives given. There might also be mechanical reasons. First, according to what I've read stopping and then starting puts more overall wear on the vehicle than idling unless we are talking about a long time between the stop and start. Second, if they are going to spend all day alternating between short delivery stops and short drives to the next delivery they might have to worry about whether or not the battery would be able to handle all those starts. The short drives might not be enough to replenish the energy from the battery that was used for the start.
franga2000 5y ago
As others have said, this provides a counter-incentive, but more importantly: why can't we fix both? We wouldn't make stealing legal because some people do it out of desperation - we can keep stealing illegal and at the same time take measures to ensure people don't need to steal to survive. Same with this.