5 ms·

Disagree entirely. Yes, a company is an assemblage of people. No, the guy working the warehouse couldn’t have built Amazon. Bezos is special talent.

giantrobot 5y ago
> Bezos is special talent. Having family wealthy enough to invest in his early business is a kind of talent I guess. As is being in the right place at the right time. If Bezos lost all of his money tomorrow he could never make it a second time.
- seibelj 5y ago
  Plenty of people can get investment. There is only one Amazon. If things are so easy, go do it yourself. Starting a company and growing it to the size of Amazon is extremely difficult. It doesn’t happen by luck or happenstance. It takes highly skilled management in addition to market timing. Luck isn’t what makes people successful. Hard working people put themselves out there and increase the opportunities for lucky events, but without the hard work and effort the luck wouldn’t be able to happen. Looking at successful people and pointing out some advantage they have is just a coping mechanism. Assuming you don’t have some disability, no one is stopping you from succeeding except yourself.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    > Starting a company and growing it to the size of Amazon is extremely difficult. That is almost certainly true. But what you don't get is that there are dozens (maybe many more) constantly striving to do just that. When some of them of succeed, why would you be surprised? Why would it be surprising or special when a system designed to cause people to strive for this kind of success actually results in it happening to some of them, and not to most of them? There's nothing remarkable about the fact of a particular corporation's success: there was always going to be a corporate success, just as there were always going to be way more corporate failures. That's how the system is designed. That's what it is there to do. It's not a reason to idolize or even respect those who happened to be on the winning team. Before you say much more, you should probably be aware that I was the #2 employee at Amazon.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      > Before you say much more, you should probably be aware that I was the #2 employee at Amazon. You popping up to disagree about how remarkable Amazon's success was is the most HN exchange I've seen since "did you win the Putnam"![1] [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
    - seibelj 5y ago
      And I’m the CTO of a unicorn I helped build from nothing! We have different opinions yet lived similar experiences. I do respect and idolize the winners. Saying “someone would have done it if we didn’t” is defeatist. No one does anything unless someone does it. So we respect the people who actually do it rather than critique from the sidelines. It’s depressing to me that you were part of something amazing yet you view yourself as a replaceable cog and the success a meaningless byproduct of a system outside of your control.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        Nobody within a particular human organization is a replaceable cog (well, at least that's an ideal that I think it is reasonable to aspire to, even if it's not technically true in a great many instances). But just as you shouldn't be surprised when you visit a forest that there are some really big trees, some not so big, and some dead trees because that's how forests work, you shouldn't be surprised that when you survey the American corporate landscape, there are some huge successes, some moderate ones and lots of failures. Sure, there was something about that much larger tree that made it nearly twice the size of its neighbors. But it was just as likely to be luck of where it germinated, luck of when it germinated, and yes, perhaps some good genes. Still, the idea that it was all the genes and that we've just discovered the uber-tree is mostly absurd. And so it is with companies. The successful ones are most the product of an intersection of different kinds of luck with some necessary-but-insufficient features of their people. We've built a mythology in the USA that mostly all that matters is the nature of a few early founders (or perhaps the occasional turn-it-around later hire). I think this is demonstrably false. That doesn't make success a "meaningless byproduct of a system outside [your] control". It means that idolizing particular instances of success as being based on people distorts our understanding of how success actually happens (and how it doesn't). I believe in intrinsic motivation - especially having worked with Bezos for a little while - and I do not think that we should, as a society, be providing motivation to people through the promise of fame and fortune. This is typically something that distorts and misdirects human effort and imagination. I also don't believe that we need to offer that motivation, at least certainly not to the extent that we currently do. To whatever extent Amazon is amazing, it is also a mixture of good and bad, and I strongly regret that as individuals our society tends to focus so much more on the good and ignores the bad (the media over the last few years have begun to rebalance this, but it needs to go much further).
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    > It doesn’t happen by luck or happenstance. It takes highly skilled management in addition to market timing. Market timing is just a euphemism for luck. > Luck isn’t what makes people successful. Hard working people put themselves out there and increase the opportunities for lucky events, but without the hard work and effort the luck wouldn’t be able to happen. Bullshit. Hard work without luck is often just hard work. > Looking at successful people and pointing out some advantage they have is just a coping mechanism. Assuming you don’t have some disability, no one is stopping you from succeeding except yourself. This just sounds like self-help seminar platitudes. I'm recognizing Bezos had advantages lots of other people did not have. He's was a well off white male with connections in the US. He would be notable if he didn't have some manner of success. Discounting the luck of circumstances is foolish. Idolize Bezos for his business acumen but there's no need to white knight for him if someone points out he started off on second base when you're claiming he hit a home run.
    - seibelj 5y ago
      And a famous musician had parents with the means and ability to purchase lessons and encourage them to practice. I still say the musician should be respected and praised. We can play this game all day. Some will say no one does anything on their own, but I say creating Amazon is an incredible accomplishment worth of praise and study.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Having followed what Bezos did and pushed as company culture, I disagree completely. I wouldn't want to work at Amazon (there are certainly better pay / stress jobs out there), but I believe the way their individual teams work is the key to success and what most large organisations get wrong. I just think the teams should get more bonuses / equity tied in their team success in order for it to be fair for team members. It's basically build-your-startup level of stress but you're working for Bezos. Similarly the general strategy of reinvesting in Amazon and spinning off AWS was just pure genius. There's a lot to learn from Bezos.

giantrobot 5y ago

> Bezos is special talent. Having family wealthy enough to invest in his early business is a kind of talent I guess. As is being in the right place at the right time. If Bezos lost all of his money tomorrow he could never make it a second time.

seibelj 5y ago
Plenty of people can get investment. There is only one Amazon. If things are so easy, go do it yourself. Starting a company and growing it to the size of Amazon is extremely difficult. It doesn’t happen by luck or happenstance. It takes highly skilled management in addition to market timing. Luck isn’t what makes people successful. Hard working people put themselves out there and increase the opportunities for lucky events, but without the hard work and effort the luck wouldn’t be able to happen. Looking at successful people and pointing out some advantage they have is just a coping mechanism. Assuming you don’t have some disability, no one is stopping you from succeeding except yourself.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > Starting a company and growing it to the size of Amazon is extremely difficult. That is almost certainly true. But what you don't get is that there are dozens (maybe many more) constantly striving to do just that. When some of them of succeed, why would you be surprised? Why would it be surprising or special when a system designed to cause people to strive for this kind of success actually results in it happening to some of them, and not to most of them? There's nothing remarkable about the fact of a particular corporation's success: there was always going to be a corporate success, just as there were always going to be way more corporate failures. That's how the system is designed. That's what it is there to do. It's not a reason to idolize or even respect those who happened to be on the winning team. Before you say much more, you should probably be aware that I was the #2 employee at Amazon.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    > Before you say much more, you should probably be aware that I was the #2 employee at Amazon. You popping up to disagree about how remarkable Amazon's success was is the most HN exchange I've seen since "did you win the Putnam"![1] [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
  - seibelj 5y ago
    And I’m the CTO of a unicorn I helped build from nothing! We have different opinions yet lived similar experiences. I do respect and idolize the winners. Saying “someone would have done it if we didn’t” is defeatist. No one does anything unless someone does it. So we respect the people who actually do it rather than critique from the sidelines. It’s depressing to me that you were part of something amazing yet you view yourself as a replaceable cog and the success a meaningless byproduct of a system outside of your control.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      Nobody within a particular human organization is a replaceable cog (well, at least that's an ideal that I think it is reasonable to aspire to, even if it's not technically true in a great many instances). But just as you shouldn't be surprised when you visit a forest that there are some really big trees, some not so big, and some dead trees because that's how forests work, you shouldn't be surprised that when you survey the American corporate landscape, there are some huge successes, some moderate ones and lots of failures. Sure, there was something about that much larger tree that made it nearly twice the size of its neighbors. But it was just as likely to be luck of where it germinated, luck of when it germinated, and yes, perhaps some good genes. Still, the idea that it was all the genes and that we've just discovered the uber-tree is mostly absurd. And so it is with companies. The successful ones are most the product of an intersection of different kinds of luck with some necessary-but-insufficient features of their people. We've built a mythology in the USA that mostly all that matters is the nature of a few early founders (or perhaps the occasional turn-it-around later hire). I think this is demonstrably false. That doesn't make success a "meaningless byproduct of a system outside [your] control". It means that idolizing particular instances of success as being based on people distorts our understanding of how success actually happens (and how it doesn't). I believe in intrinsic motivation - especially having worked with Bezos for a little while - and I do not think that we should, as a society, be providing motivation to people through the promise of fame and fortune. This is typically something that distorts and misdirects human effort and imagination. I also don't believe that we need to offer that motivation, at least certainly not to the extent that we currently do. To whatever extent Amazon is amazing, it is also a mixture of good and bad, and I strongly regret that as individuals our society tends to focus so much more on the good and ignores the bad (the media over the last few years have begun to rebalance this, but it needs to go much further).
- giantrobot 5y ago
  > It doesn’t happen by luck or happenstance. It takes highly skilled management in addition to market timing. Market timing is just a euphemism for luck. > Luck isn’t what makes people successful. Hard working people put themselves out there and increase the opportunities for lucky events, but without the hard work and effort the luck wouldn’t be able to happen. Bullshit. Hard work without luck is often just hard work. > Looking at successful people and pointing out some advantage they have is just a coping mechanism. Assuming you don’t have some disability, no one is stopping you from succeeding except yourself. This just sounds like self-help seminar platitudes. I'm recognizing Bezos had advantages lots of other people did not have. He's was a well off white male with connections in the US. He would be notable if he didn't have some manner of success. Discounting the luck of circumstances is foolish. Idolize Bezos for his business acumen but there's no need to white knight for him if someone points out he started off on second base when you're claiming he hit a home run.
  - seibelj 5y ago
    And a famous musician had parents with the means and ability to purchase lessons and encourage them to practice. I still say the musician should be respected and praised. We can play this game all day. Some will say no one does anything on their own, but I say creating Amazon is an incredible accomplishment worth of praise and study.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
Having followed what Bezos did and pushed as company culture, I disagree completely. I wouldn't want to work at Amazon (there are certainly better pay / stress jobs out there), but I believe the way their individual teams work is the key to success and what most large organisations get wrong. I just think the teams should get more bonuses / equity tied in their team success in order for it to be fair for team members. It's basically build-your-startup level of stress but you're working for Bezos. Similarly the general strategy of reinvesting in Amazon and spinning off AWS was just pure genius. There's a lot to learn from Bezos.