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What a joke. In the month, I got sick twice, had two 'best friends' get married, had a grandfather die, needed a root canal, wrecked my car (even though I chos

What a joke. In the month, I got sick twice, had two 'best friends' get married, had a grandfather die, needed a root canal, wrecked my car (even though I chose to pay the max rent and live 5 miles from work, it told me I still had to to have a car), had my sink break (and the landlord refuse to fix it), got caught hiding pets in my apartment (why do I have a pet? I can't afford a pet, that is just a bad decision.). I get it, they are trying to make a point. However, the point they are making is crap. It is very hard to live on $9 an hour. However, making $9 puts you in the top 1% of all humans who have ever lived. There are lots of social programs that will help a little. They don't make you rich, but they help a little. The first thing I ask anyone who complains about being unemployed or underemployed: "Do you have a TV? Do you have cable or satellite tv?" You wouldn't believe how hostile people are when you suggest that they might benefit from turning off their tv and using that time to study or learn a new skill. As a child my family was on food stamps and welfare. My mother raised 4 boys on her own. As it turns out, I am now in the top 1% of wage earners in the US, but I don't have time to watch TV. I have never taken a real vacation. I suffered through 6 years of Army Reserve so I could pay for college. Every free minute I have is spent working, hustling, studying, experimenting. I don't believe the hype. If you are willing to work your ass off, if you show up to work on time and aren't high or drunk, and you don't steal, it is very easy to get a job, today. It's easy to get 2 jobs. Working 80 hours per week isn't something that you want to do, but it's a walk in the park compared to the conditions our ancestors lived in. It's really hard to take care of kids when you are a single parent and you can't get childcare, especially if you don't have family that is willing to help. Maybe we should do more for people in this situation, not to help them, but to at least give the kids the opportunity to do better. For everyone else, I say stop whining, throw away your tv, and stop being so entitled and lazy.

lionhearted 15y ago
Very good comment Justin, much respect from me. A small point though - > I have never taken a real vacation. I used to be like this. I'd work, literally, about 362 days per year and take 3 off. It didn't max out my productivity, it didn't max out my income, it didn't max out my quality of life, it didn't make me better able to serve customers and clients. Really, I was just suffering because I had an identity of "being hardcore." I still do, to some extent. But I'm taking more time off lately and doing better than ever. I work less, but my decisions are sharper. To wade in, try taking off 2-3 days and go somewhere nice that's only ~100 to ~200 miles from where you live, or less. That's a short pleasant train ride, a 30-60 minute flight, or a few hour drive. Hang out in a cabin by a lake, or the beach, or whatever. Refuse to work unless you get hyper-inspired. You might, actually - get hyper inspired. Then it's okay. But if you step back and get some perspective instead of constantly grinding it out, you might actually increase your income, productivity, ability to serve and deliver for your staff and customers, and your own quality of life. It does require giving up an identity of "I'm hardcore and suffer because that's what I do" though - and I don't say that in a snarky way. I've got that identity. But again, I suspect it might actually be counterproductive to income, productivity, service, and quality of life.
deerparkwater 15y ago
Making $9 at US doesn't put you into the 1% of all humans. You must be kidding. Ancient civilizations had currency
blake8086 15y ago
I just played a round of this game (ended with $322), and I felt like it was a compelling demonstration of why I'm not poor. I know they wanted to present an argument of "oh, all these bad things happen that keep people poor", but I really saw a bunch of small decisions that, when made poorly, accumulate into having no money.
- TeMPOraL 15y ago
  > I know they wanted to present an argument of "oh, all these bad things happen that keep people poor", but I really saw a bunch of small decisions that, when made poorly, accumulate into having no money. I think the latter is much closer to reality, at least for people who are on their way to poverty. Or maybe a mix of both. There are problems that are equally probable to rich and poor, but the former can sometimes just throw money at them until they're gone, and the latter have to deal with them the hard way.
- electromagnetic 15y ago
  I get they're trying to make a point, but it was poorly done. I chose a job as a restaurant worker $8 an hour and I don't get what its point was when someone is trying to unionise the workforce and says something like "people in low income will often avoid opportunities to better their income" or some crap. All I'm left with thinking is if your wage is <$3 from your employer, there's slim-to-nil chance you're going to unionise. Your employers response is simply FIRED, because there'll always be a dozen more people looking for a no-skill job. The other things that pissed me off were the gimmicks. Like I got a speeding ticket and by contesting it in court I got charged a $40 court fee, which where I live doesn't happen. If a cop gives me a speeding ticket, it costs the police to bring the motion, not me. Furthermore my landlord increased my rent illegally and the option was "take it" or "move", and then illegally increased my rent again when a roommate moved in. What I don't get is why when I'm broke, don't have internet etc, why I wouldn't go down to the library and find out how to file a tenancy board complaint to have the guy nailed. As I too ended with over $300, this was just an illustration in how stupid people make stupid decisions. One of these was making a game that doesn't correctly illustrate people with low wages problems.
stretchwithme 15y ago
Back in 1986, I had 2 jobs, 1 delivering packages full-time and the other cleaning windows and offices nights and Saturdays. I did not go to college right out of school and I had no marketable skills. I was able to save $16,000 in 2 years, all of which was counted against me when I applied at the local community college. And, yes, I had no TV most of that time! No computer either. Never ate out or travelled. Lived in crap town where all it does is snow, rain and cloud over. Drove cars that cost less than I now gross in a week. There are people all over working just as hard and with kids and maybe not so many educational possibilities. Life can be tough. But even these folks used to be able to save a little bit of money and earn interest on it. If you only save $200 a month for 30 years at 6%, you end up with $200,000. Even if they have any money after paying all the taxes, they can't earn any interest on their savings anyway. The same $200 a month leaves you with only $77,000 at .5% after the same 30 years. What we're doing is punishing the very virtues that made it possible for even the least skilled to move out of poverty back in the day.
- antihero 15y ago
  Having kids when you are young and poor is just a dumb idea, really. Not saying people shouldn't be able to, but it just seems stupid to burden yourself with dependants before you are financially stable.
forza 15y ago
I seldom hear poor people whine. Pride is usually one of the few things you have left. And don't equate the poor with lazyness and addiction. If you grew up poor you should know better. I do hear people with money complain about car payments, regulation, taxes etc. all the time. I guess your comment is well-ment in a can-do attitude kind of way, but lacks pragmatism and basic understanding of psychology. It's easy to take away the things that enable you to do something and then blame the individual. In my experience most of the time things considered better actually are and what doesn't kill you messes with your head.
- ry0ohki 15y ago
  Especially in America, the people I hear the most talk about "when they are rich" are usually the poorest people I know. We've instilled a type of optimism and "anything is possible" attitude that most people blame themselves for their situation.
  - forza 15y ago
    While not specifically about the american dream I do remember finding this ted talk by Alain de Botton quite interesting http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_philosophy_of_success.html http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_ph...
mannicken 15y ago
I'm gonna have to agree with this. I grew up in a poor town in Ukraine. Up until the age of 9 or so, I was on a steady diet of potato soup. No videogames meant my only source of entertainment was reading or drawing. New cloth? Forget about it, haha. A candy bar (mmm Bounty) was something to buy on a holiday. Walk to the school and get ostracized/bullied by kids who somehow resemble wild animals. The entire last 8 years in USA felt like a walk in the park. No food? Pshh, food stamps, food banks, whatever. Food takes about 5-10% of household's income anyway, compared to like 50% of the income in Ukraine. No housing? Millions of relatives with giant houses, homeless shelters, etc. It's even easier to lose weight just because of the access to millions of gyms, dance clubs, and healthy food. What's my point? I don't know :)
- arvinjoar 15y ago
  That perhaps 'poor' is a relative term?
sireat 15y ago
The game is unrealistic, just like any games, but makes a good statement. Personally, I would have liked a little for the game is provide room for improvement (over a period of time) but also provide some attachment to ones choices. It should have been made like Oregon Trail. What the game does not really provide is the emotional baggage that comes with many of these decisions. For example, when asked what to do with the pet, I took him to the shelter (financially the best choice). In real life, I am not sure I could make that decisions (disclaimer I do not own any pets in RL). Similarly, with the best friends wedding in another state: In the game, flying to that wedding is a bad choice, but in RL, you would try to borrow money and go anyway. When you are poor, it is really hard to delay gratification, even though that is the best choice in the long run(and we all know what happens in the long run). Game should have been over a period of one year or so (roughly the period of the Nickel and Dimed and Scratch Beginnings).

lionhearted 15y ago

Very good comment Justin, much respect from me. A small point though - > I have never taken a real vacation. I used to be like this. I'd work, literally, about 362 days per year and take 3 off. It didn't max out my productivity, it didn't max out my income, it didn't max out my quality of life, it didn't make me better able to serve customers and clients. Really, I was just suffering because I had an identity of "being hardcore." I still do, to some extent. But I'm taking more time off lately and doing better than ever. I work less, but my decisions are sharper. To wade in, try taking off 2-3 days and go somewhere nice that's only ~100 to ~200 miles from where you live, or less. That's a short pleasant train ride, a 30-60 minute flight, or a few hour drive. Hang out in a cabin by a lake, or the beach, or whatever. Refuse to work unless you get hyper-inspired. You might, actually - get hyper inspired. Then it's okay. But if you step back and get some perspective instead of constantly grinding it out, you might actually increase your income, productivity, ability to serve and deliver for your staff and customers, and your own quality of life. It does require giving up an identity of "I'm hardcore and suffer because that's what I do" though - and I don't say that in a snarky way. I've got that identity. But again, I suspect it might actually be counterproductive to income, productivity, service, and quality of life.

deerparkwater 15y ago

Making $9 at US doesn't put you into the 1% of all humans. You must be kidding. Ancient civilizations had currency

blake8086 15y ago

I just played a round of this game (ended with $322), and I felt like it was a compelling demonstration of why I'm not poor. I know they wanted to present an argument of "oh, all these bad things happen that keep people poor", but I really saw a bunch of small decisions that, when made poorly, accumulate into having no money.

TeMPOraL 15y ago
> I know they wanted to present an argument of "oh, all these bad things happen that keep people poor", but I really saw a bunch of small decisions that, when made poorly, accumulate into having no money. I think the latter is much closer to reality, at least for people who are on their way to poverty. Or maybe a mix of both. There are problems that are equally probable to rich and poor, but the former can sometimes just throw money at them until they're gone, and the latter have to deal with them the hard way.
electromagnetic 15y ago
I get they're trying to make a point, but it was poorly done. I chose a job as a restaurant worker $8 an hour and I don't get what its point was when someone is trying to unionise the workforce and says something like "people in low income will often avoid opportunities to better their income" or some crap. All I'm left with thinking is if your wage is <$3 from your employer, there's slim-to-nil chance you're going to unionise. Your employers response is simply FIRED, because there'll always be a dozen more people looking for a no-skill job. The other things that pissed me off were the gimmicks. Like I got a speeding ticket and by contesting it in court I got charged a $40 court fee, which where I live doesn't happen. If a cop gives me a speeding ticket, it costs the police to bring the motion, not me. Furthermore my landlord increased my rent illegally and the option was "take it" or "move", and then illegally increased my rent again when a roommate moved in. What I don't get is why when I'm broke, don't have internet etc, why I wouldn't go down to the library and find out how to file a tenancy board complaint to have the guy nailed. As I too ended with over $300, this was just an illustration in how stupid people make stupid decisions. One of these was making a game that doesn't correctly illustrate people with low wages problems.

stretchwithme 15y ago

Back in 1986, I had 2 jobs, 1 delivering packages full-time and the other cleaning windows and offices nights and Saturdays. I did not go to college right out of school and I had no marketable skills. I was able to save $16,000 in 2 years, all of which was counted against me when I applied at the local community college. And, yes, I had no TV most of that time! No computer either. Never ate out or travelled. Lived in crap town where all it does is snow, rain and cloud over. Drove cars that cost less than I now gross in a week. There are people all over working just as hard and with kids and maybe not so many educational possibilities. Life can be tough. But even these folks used to be able to save a little bit of money and earn interest on it. If you only save $200 a month for 30 years at 6%, you end up with $200,000. Even if they have any money after paying all the taxes, they can't earn any interest on their savings anyway. The same $200 a month leaves you with only $77,000 at .5% after the same 30 years. What we're doing is punishing the very virtues that made it possible for even the least skilled to move out of poverty back in the day.

antihero 15y ago
Having kids when you are young and poor is just a dumb idea, really. Not saying people shouldn't be able to, but it just seems stupid to burden yourself with dependants before you are financially stable.

forza 15y ago

I seldom hear poor people whine. Pride is usually one of the few things you have left. And don't equate the poor with lazyness and addiction. If you grew up poor you should know better. I do hear people with money complain about car payments, regulation, taxes etc. all the time. I guess your comment is well-ment in a can-do attitude kind of way, but lacks pragmatism and basic understanding of psychology. It's easy to take away the things that enable you to do something and then blame the individual. In my experience most of the time things considered better actually are and what doesn't kill you messes with your head.

ry0ohki 15y ago
Especially in America, the people I hear the most talk about "when they are rich" are usually the poorest people I know. We've instilled a type of optimism and "anything is possible" attitude that most people blame themselves for their situation.
- forza 15y ago
  While not specifically about the american dream I do remember finding this ted talk by Alain de Botton quite interesting http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_philosophy_of_success.html http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_ph...

mannicken 15y ago

I'm gonna have to agree with this. I grew up in a poor town in Ukraine. Up until the age of 9 or so, I was on a steady diet of potato soup. No videogames meant my only source of entertainment was reading or drawing. New cloth? Forget about it, haha. A candy bar (mmm Bounty) was something to buy on a holiday. Walk to the school and get ostracized/bullied by kids who somehow resemble wild animals. The entire last 8 years in USA felt like a walk in the park. No food? Pshh, food stamps, food banks, whatever. Food takes about 5-10% of household's income anyway, compared to like 50% of the income in Ukraine. No housing? Millions of relatives with giant houses, homeless shelters, etc. It's even easier to lose weight just because of the access to millions of gyms, dance clubs, and healthy food. What's my point? I don't know :)

arvinjoar 15y ago
That perhaps 'poor' is a relative term?

sireat 15y ago

The game is unrealistic, just like any games, but makes a good statement. Personally, I would have liked a little for the game is provide room for improvement (over a period of time) but also provide some attachment to ones choices. It should have been made like Oregon Trail. What the game does not really provide is the emotional baggage that comes with many of these decisions. For example, when asked what to do with the pet, I took him to the shelter (financially the best choice). In real life, I am not sure I could make that decisions (disclaimer I do not own any pets in RL). Similarly, with the best friends wedding in another state: In the game, flying to that wedding is a bad choice, but in RL, you would try to borrow money and go anyway. When you are poor, it is really hard to delay gratification, even though that is the best choice in the long run(and we all know what happens in the long run). Game should have been over a period of one year or so (roughly the period of the Nickel and Dimed and Scratch Beginnings).