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Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seek

Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russians get a hold of them? I'm asking in good faith, because her attitude suggests these aren't just run of the mill labs. https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has...

usernomdeguerre 5y ago
It seems tautological that biological research facilities would have biological agents in them? And not a distant stones throw to assume a portion of those under study should not be let out of their cages? That is a substantively different claim than them having biological weapons or researching/producing such weapons, no? I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two?
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two? And this is the whole point. This right here. Putin has made a very strong claim based on a kernel of truth. That kernel of truth is seized upon and amplified, which serves to amplify the original very strong yet fallacious claim. - False Claim: Biolabs are being used by an American-supported Nazi regime to create a dangerous pathogen that will target Russians specifically with their DNA. - Kernel of truth: Biolabs exist and have dangerous things in them. They are being funded by money that has Western sources. - Laundered opinion: Biolabs are dangerous, we should do something about the biolabs. - Amplified feedback: Everyone agrees the Nazi-run biolabs have deadly things in them! Here are western personalities that are also very concerned about the biolabs, so I think we're all in agreement. They are using these deadly things to produce WMDs that are going to kill us! We have to do something drastic to stop them from using these weapons against us!
ModernMech 5y ago
Here's the thing about Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi and their substacks: they are part of that whole laundering of Russian propaganda. You have to stop and ask yourself why we are talking about biolabs at all in the first place. The reason is that Putin wants to talk about biolabs because a) he needs to bolster his case that Ukrainians are Nazis intent on killing Russians and b) he possibly is prepping for using biological/chemical WMDs himself, as Russians used this same kind of tactic in their previous aggressions: claim the other side is doing something, and then do that very same thing yourself. So what happens after Putin makes these claims? Well then Tucker Carlson helpfully comes in and airs a program where he does not make the same exact claims Putin makes, but he does this schtick where he "just asks questions," where the questions he is asking are quite provocative and tacitly align with the Kremlin position. Then the rest of the right-wing chorus comes along and we're all talking about biolabs at different levels, but the whole conversation is being seeded by Putin. What he does then is loop back this chatter on Russian state media. He uses it to show that actually "a lot of people, even in the West" are talking about Ukrainian biolabs and that the whole thing is a legitimate concern. Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. I don't pretend to know much about biolabs, although it sure seems there are a lot of experts nowadays. But the point is whatever discussion we are having about biolabs is not organic, and we need to be highly attuned to that fact. We also have to be attuned to the fact that people like Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine that they were shocked and flabbergasted when Putin actually crossed the border and began his slaughter. Matt Taibbi had to make a public apology based on how wrong he was. And the reason they were so wrong about this is because they have blinders on regarding Russia that have been erected over years, since at least 2016. These blinders prevented them from seeing the obvious: that Putin was amassing a huge force at Ukraine's borders in preparation for an invasion. Because what were they doing during this period? They were again, carrying Putin's water and parroting Putin's position that he was not going to invade at all. So really, I don't know how they have any credibility whatsoever at this point.
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  I knew I shouldn't have linked to Greenwald. Just like, address the direct quote from Nuland. > Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. There are concerns about biolabs. Nuland said exactly that. She even used the word "concern". They are - I'm guessing from the context - unique enough that the Russians don't have labs like this, otherwise who cares if the Russians capture them? Am I just ignorant about non-weapons biolabs here? > Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine OK. And? They've acknowledged this. If being wrong about a thing disqualifies all your future reporting, then I shouldn't believe anyone. And if we're talking about people being wrong about Putin's intentions, go back and watch the media and Democratic politicians mock Romney when he suggested back in the 2012 Presidential Debates that Putin was a threat - but now I have to believe everything those people say but Greenwald and Taibbi are off limits?
sydd 5y ago
OK, here is some fact checking about the biolabs, spoiler: its Russian propaganda to justify their war and to shift the conversation. - The US and Ukraine denies it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... - There was a collaboration signed between US DoD and Ukraine's ministry of health: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukraine-Weapons.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukra... Its goal is to handle the pathogens dating from the Soviet era https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-star/ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-st... - Ukraine is not alone with such collaboration with the US, e.g. Kazahstan and Georgia have similar projects too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs - the labs themselves are not secret, their researchers publish frequently and they are under Ukrainian authority, no US scientist work there https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... If you think about it the whole thing is totally illogical, why would the US build top secret labs outside American soil, in a country famous for corruption and whose neighbor is the USA's archenemy? Its like moving the Pentagon to Moscow.

usernomdeguerre 5y ago

It seems tautological that biological research facilities would have biological agents in them? And not a distant stones throw to assume a portion of those under study should not be let out of their cages? That is a substantively different claim than them having biological weapons or researching/producing such weapons, no? I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two?

ModernMech 5y ago
> I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two? And this is the whole point. This right here. Putin has made a very strong claim based on a kernel of truth. That kernel of truth is seized upon and amplified, which serves to amplify the original very strong yet fallacious claim. - False Claim: Biolabs are being used by an American-supported Nazi regime to create a dangerous pathogen that will target Russians specifically with their DNA. - Kernel of truth: Biolabs exist and have dangerous things in them. They are being funded by money that has Western sources. - Laundered opinion: Biolabs are dangerous, we should do something about the biolabs. - Amplified feedback: Everyone agrees the Nazi-run biolabs have deadly things in them! Here are western personalities that are also very concerned about the biolabs, so I think we're all in agreement. They are using these deadly things to produce WMDs that are going to kill us! We have to do something drastic to stop them from using these weapons against us!

ModernMech 5y ago

Here's the thing about Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi and their substacks: they are part of that whole laundering of Russian propaganda. You have to stop and ask yourself why we are talking about biolabs at all in the first place. The reason is that Putin wants to talk about biolabs because a) he needs to bolster his case that Ukrainians are Nazis intent on killing Russians and b) he possibly is prepping for using biological/chemical WMDs himself, as Russians used this same kind of tactic in their previous aggressions: claim the other side is doing something, and then do that very same thing yourself. So what happens after Putin makes these claims? Well then Tucker Carlson helpfully comes in and airs a program where he does not make the same exact claims Putin makes, but he does this schtick where he "just asks questions," where the questions he is asking are quite provocative and tacitly align with the Kremlin position. Then the rest of the right-wing chorus comes along and we're all talking about biolabs at different levels, but the whole conversation is being seeded by Putin. What he does then is loop back this chatter on Russian state media. He uses it to show that actually "a lot of people, even in the West" are talking about Ukrainian biolabs and that the whole thing is a legitimate concern. Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. I don't pretend to know much about biolabs, although it sure seems there are a lot of experts nowadays. But the point is whatever discussion we are having about biolabs is not organic, and we need to be highly attuned to that fact. We also have to be attuned to the fact that people like Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine that they were shocked and flabbergasted when Putin actually crossed the border and began his slaughter. Matt Taibbi had to make a public apology based on how wrong he was. And the reason they were so wrong about this is because they have blinders on regarding Russia that have been erected over years, since at least 2016. These blinders prevented them from seeing the obvious: that Putin was amassing a huge force at Ukraine's borders in preparation for an invasion. Because what were they doing during this period? They were again, carrying Putin's water and parroting Putin's position that he was not going to invade at all. So really, I don't know how they have any credibility whatsoever at this point.

brandonmenc 5y ago
I knew I shouldn't have linked to Greenwald. Just like, address the direct quote from Nuland. > Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. There are concerns about biolabs. Nuland said exactly that. She even used the word "concern". They are - I'm guessing from the context - unique enough that the Russians don't have labs like this, otherwise who cares if the Russians capture them? Am I just ignorant about non-weapons biolabs here? > Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine OK. And? They've acknowledged this. If being wrong about a thing disqualifies all your future reporting, then I shouldn't believe anyone. And if we're talking about people being wrong about Putin's intentions, go back and watch the media and Democratic politicians mock Romney when he suggested back in the 2012 Presidential Debates that Putin was a threat - but now I have to believe everything those people say but Greenwald and Taibbi are off limits?

sydd 5y ago

OK, here is some fact checking about the biolabs, spoiler: its Russian propaganda to justify their war and to shift the conversation. - The US and Ukraine denies it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... - There was a collaboration signed between US DoD and Ukraine's ministry of health: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukraine-Weapons.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukra... Its goal is to handle the pathogens dating from the Soviet era https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-star/ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-st... - Ukraine is not alone with such collaboration with the US, e.g. Kazahstan and Georgia have similar projects too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs - the labs themselves are not secret, their researchers publish frequently and they are under Ukrainian authority, no US scientist work there https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... If you think about it the whole thing is totally illogical, why would the US build top secret labs outside American soil, in a country famous for corruption and whose neighbor is the USA's archenemy? Its like moving the Pentagon to Moscow.