12 ms·

A sequence that we see all the time in the world of junk science

74 points by tomrod 5y ago

ModernMech 5y ago
Here’s a disturbing trend I’ve seen lately: Putin will say something regarding Ukraine, like for instance there are biolabs there which may be used to create biological WMDs. Then right wing media in America starts making the same claim. Trusted conservative voices like Tucker Carlson will spend a good portion of his show talking about the topic, and then he gets rebroadcast in Russia. Meanwhile, whatever he said starts finding it’s way all over the place, including right here on HN. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30640741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30640741 It appears that what’s happening is Putin’s propaganda is being laundered through right wing media, causing conservative Americans to support Putin’s worldview without them even knowing it. I don’t think these people are Putin sympathizers, but many don’t realize they’re pushing his lines. How do we counter this?
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russians get a hold of them? I'm asking in good faith, because her attitude suggests these aren't just run of the mill labs. https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has...
  - usernomdeguerre 5y ago
    It seems tautological that biological research facilities would have biological agents in them? And not a distant stones throw to assume a portion of those under study should not be let out of their cages? That is a substantively different claim than them having biological weapons or researching/producing such weapons, no? I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two?
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      > I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two? And this is the whole point. This right here. Putin has made a very strong claim based on a kernel of truth. That kernel of truth is seized upon and amplified, which serves to amplify the original very strong yet fallacious claim. - False Claim: Biolabs are being used by an American-supported Nazi regime to create a dangerous pathogen that will target Russians specifically with their DNA. - Kernel of truth: Biolabs exist and have dangerous things in them. They are being funded by money that has Western sources. - Laundered opinion: Biolabs are dangerous, we should do something about the biolabs. - Amplified feedback: Everyone agrees the Nazi-run biolabs have deadly things in them! Here are western personalities that are also very concerned about the biolabs, so I think we're all in agreement. They are using these deadly things to produce WMDs that are going to kill us! We have to do something drastic to stop them from using these weapons against us!
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Here's the thing about Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi and their substacks: they are part of that whole laundering of Russian propaganda. You have to stop and ask yourself why we are talking about biolabs at all in the first place. The reason is that Putin wants to talk about biolabs because a) he needs to bolster his case that Ukrainians are Nazis intent on killing Russians and b) he possibly is prepping for using biological/chemical WMDs himself, as Russians used this same kind of tactic in their previous aggressions: claim the other side is doing something, and then do that very same thing yourself. So what happens after Putin makes these claims? Well then Tucker Carlson helpfully comes in and airs a program where he does not make the same exact claims Putin makes, but he does this schtick where he "just asks questions," where the questions he is asking are quite provocative and tacitly align with the Kremlin position. Then the rest of the right-wing chorus comes along and we're all talking about biolabs at different levels, but the whole conversation is being seeded by Putin. What he does then is loop back this chatter on Russian state media. He uses it to show that actually "a lot of people, even in the West" are talking about Ukrainian biolabs and that the whole thing is a legitimate concern. Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. I don't pretend to know much about biolabs, although it sure seems there are a lot of experts nowadays. But the point is whatever discussion we are having about biolabs is not organic, and we need to be highly attuned to that fact. We also have to be attuned to the fact that people like Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine that they were shocked and flabbergasted when Putin actually crossed the border and began his slaughter. Matt Taibbi had to make a public apology based on how wrong he was. And the reason they were so wrong about this is because they have blinders on regarding Russia that have been erected over years, since at least 2016. These blinders prevented them from seeing the obvious: that Putin was amassing a huge force at Ukraine's borders in preparation for an invasion. Because what were they doing during this period? They were again, carrying Putin's water and parroting Putin's position that he was not going to invade at all. So really, I don't know how they have any credibility whatsoever at this point.
    - brandonmenc 5y ago
      I knew I shouldn't have linked to Greenwald. Just like, address the direct quote from Nuland. > Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. There are concerns about biolabs. Nuland said exactly that. She even used the word "concern". They are - I'm guessing from the context - unique enough that the Russians don't have labs like this, otherwise who cares if the Russians capture them? Am I just ignorant about non-weapons biolabs here? > Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine OK. And? They've acknowledged this. If being wrong about a thing disqualifies all your future reporting, then I shouldn't believe anyone. And if we're talking about people being wrong about Putin's intentions, go back and watch the media and Democratic politicians mock Romney when he suggested back in the 2012 Presidential Debates that Putin was a threat - but now I have to believe everything those people say but Greenwald and Taibbi are off limits?
  - sydd 5y ago
    OK, here is some fact checking about the biolabs, spoiler: its Russian propaganda to justify their war and to shift the conversation. - The US and Ukraine denies it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... - There was a collaboration signed between US DoD and Ukraine's ministry of health: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukraine-Weapons.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukra... Its goal is to handle the pathogens dating from the Soviet era https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-star/ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-st... - Ukraine is not alone with such collaboration with the US, e.g. Kazahstan and Georgia have similar projects too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs - the labs themselves are not secret, their researchers publish frequently and they are under Ukrainian authority, no US scientist work there https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... If you think about it the whole thing is totally illogical, why would the US build top secret labs outside American soil, in a country famous for corruption and whose neighbor is the USA's archenemy? Its like moving the Pentagon to Moscow.
- quinnjh 5y ago
  Maybe we could innoculate our populace with truth that aligns with facts-on-the-ground? I mean inagine if russia dropped the biolabs propoganda and americans were like "yeah i know, my tax dollars help pay for that to preserve my nations interests abroad" Its not hard to understand why people are uncomfortable injecting something harmful in small dose- but its how we develop a proper immune response. We need to think big picture biosecurity in information domain.
qiskit 5y ago
I agree with most points in the blog except for the last point which struck me as a bit of misinformation itself. > P.S. Yet another form of misinformation is political lies of the sort that we’ve been seeing most notoriously from Russian propaganda lately. Considering that most russian media is banned/censored in the west, it's highly unlikely that we are seeing much russian propaganda. Instead, the political misinformation we've been seeing are western propaganda. Across all social media and all news platforms, it's been 24/7 western propaganda. Even here, we've had daily western propaganda. I don't remember a single russian propaganda post hitting the frontpage. I don't think anyone can seriously claim the political misinformation we are experience are russian propaganda. It's most definitely anti-russian western propaganda. If I'm wrong, I'd love to see examples of social media or news stations/papers/etc that are running russian propaganda. Obviously russians in russia are being bombarded with russian propaganda. I doubt anyone in NY or columbia is.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Considering that most russian media is banned/censored in the west, it's highly unlikely that we are seeing much russian propaganda. Russian propaganda has always been distributed through channels that beyond Russian media. In the US, specifically, Russia has substantial influence with the American Left whose survival of the fall of the USSR into kleptocratic capitalist Russia is an...interesting arc, and has cultivated newer channels through the American far right (particularly White nationalist groups) as well. While there is almost certainly ongoing direct active influence through both groups, even beyond that plenty in both actively seek out Russian media (which, even though most has shut down operations in the west) is trivial to access from the West if you are actively seeking it out and repeat narratives received through it.
- quinnjh 5y ago
  At this point, true facts are considered russian propoganda when the press secretary has an agenda of full fiction.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    Hunter Biden’s lost laptop confirmed real by the New York Times this week. A video that was on it of him sitting nearly naked in a hotel room, smoking crack rocks, and telling a hooker how his last laptop was stolen by Russians and they were trying to blackmail him - completely skipped over. When asked about the absolutely real laptop, she deflected to say it’s proven that Russians have been spreading misinformation. The media double standard is infuriating.
agumonkey 5y ago
Since the war I also noticed a fractal rabbit-hole flavor of the fog of war. You can be argued into oblivion because of past information. While trying to discuss with both camps I see incomplete arguments, referring to previous arguments, that refers to previous arguments. The current conflict being partly due to west/east tensions, birth of nato, cold war.. you can even go back to 1917 according to wikipedia. You can also read articles or books and may never be able to conclude anything [0]. I'm not sure it's coordinated fuzzing at the social level. Just say whatever and point fingers at "facts" so the other camp starts to wonder if there's something, meanwhile you keep doing what you do (invade). [0] fans of Burn after reading might rejoyce.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  It seems like you’re referring to the origins of the conflict and not what’s happening on the ground right now. It also seems like you’re not sure who’s to blame for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Is that the case? I'm not sure it's coordinated fuzzing at the social level. What would that look like? People on opposite sides making opposing claims? What about meta-commentary that both sides have equally compelling arguments and that it’s impossible to know which side is right?
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    No, I'm wondering if internet gave the idea to some state security agency to cook a mind vacuum by showing bits of potential evidence (1991 agreements, past aggressions, shifting blame) so that people will waste time and energy in sterile debate. I was reading a series on a .ru sites about history of russian computing, whose author claimed a lot of faults with the soviet system that caused a their demise. But in the comments a few russians (or bots ... I don't know anything anymore at that point) were quick to point at that, the author analysis was fragile, giving him other data points about missing events, or developments. All to say that even when you try to document yourself.. you never know the whole story. Unless maybe you start an absolute quest of truth to cross all data points. And even then, data can still be wrong (people might forget to record stuff, or deliberately ignore some).
stolenmerch 5y ago
There's another related phenomenon where a claim can be true and false at the same time yet many people get trapped attempting to prove the claim's veracity in a series of "no, actually..." proofs. Each party thinks they have the "actual" truth and both are just spinning around the same nebulous. Examples of this are hard to provide because they only spawn a new version of the controversy. The fantastic story "Sort By Controversial" gives you a glimpse into this occurrence. [0] [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/
Markoff 5y ago
I like how he mentioned Russian propaganda, but completely ignores Ukrainian one which is uncritically published by all MSM. These last two pandemic years taught me to have absolute distrust in MSM, since as we all seen difference between "misinformation" and truth is few months. It seems this shrank during UA war from months to hours, the best examples immediately forgotten by MSM being famous Ghost of Kiev, Snake island hero zombie soldiers or Mariupol drama theater with 1000 dead/trapped people under rubble with moving satellite photo of KIDS sign yet NOT A SINGLE photo of anyone trying to rescue them, not a single ambulance, digger, dead body etc and let's ignore fact people spreading "misinformation" wrote about this bombing 3 days prior it on Twitter. https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1502875319170387968 https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/15028753191703879... And speaking about supporting UA with colors same happened with Chinese CCTV news anchor where someone completely changed colors of her dress from green to blue and then spread this changed image for Ukrainian propaganda purposes all over social media, you can see social media photo and real colors in video here: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4458635 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4458635 And let's forget Pandora papers corrupted Zelensky suddenly becoming The Saint in MSM, while it's same corrupted scumbag as Putin.
CrzyLngPwd 5y ago
I'm worn out by the news, the transparent propaganda on both sides, the screaming for war from some small but vocal groups, and the general feeling of doom when I think about what is happening in Ukraine. I have no faith in the MSM any more, and I find the war news is also infecting other areas of life. I think, having been bombarded with claims and counter claims for the last few years, and seeing media shutting down discussion that doesn't fit, I am utterly exhausted by it. What's a guy to do?
notRobot 5y ago
General comment: I wish more articles would correctly use "misinformation" or "disinformation" depending on the context. Disinformation is the deliberate spreading of false information to mislead the audience.
- sammalloy 5y ago
  The pattern we tend to see is that it’s disinformation at the higher levels of distribution, but misinformation at the lower levels, like Facebook friends sharing health, politics, or racist propaganda between accounts. There have been several write ups about how all of this works since the mid-2010s. One of the most fascinating and disturbing disinformation networks that I’ve ever ever seen is a 2020 analysis of the propaganda web network created by Mike Adams of NaturalNews.com by ISD: https://www.isdglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/20200620-ISDG-NaturalNews-Briefing-V4.pdf https://www.isdglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2020062... To me, it looks like a foreign-influence operation intended to degrade and disrupt the exchange of free ideas in the US by injecting total nonsense into discussions about health and politics. A lot of Mike Adams’ disinformation is distributed as misinformation by unintended, and unwitting secondhand participants, like right-wing conservative blogs and pundits. Edit: I forgot to mention that since this initial report came out in 2020, there’s been further revelations about how the NaturalNews network hired hackers to build their extensive network and help disseminate propaganda. > Disinformation guru “Hacker X” names his employer: NaturalNews.com https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/10/disinformation-guru-hacker-x-names-his-employer-naturalnews-com/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/10/disinformation-g... > “Hacker X”—the American who built a pro-Trump fake news empire—unmasks himself https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/10/hacker-x-the-american-who-built-a-pro-trump-fake-news-empire-unmasks-himself/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/10/hacke...
insickness 5y ago
> Yet another form of misinformation is political lies of the sort that we’ve been seeing most notoriously from Russian propaganda lately. Are you referring to propaganda that Russia is spreading or the labeling of anyone who disagrees with the common narrative as Russian propaganda? It would seem to be there's a lot more of the second going on. Likewise, as much misinformation as there is going around, there's just as much labeling things as disinformation in order wield political muscle, which was rampant for the last two years during covid.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  This appears to be a strange self-conversation. You take words and twist them until they fit a point you wanted to make. Apparently you believe in things that most don't believe and that have been labeled (by whom?) as Russian propaganda. What does this add or subtract to the article? And if I dare say so: if others get the impression that ideas you share are propaganda it is worth reflecting how you formed these opinions/beliefs. We are all victims of one form of propaganda or anotherz so it is generally a good idea to sometimes question whether important beliefs are indeed true, and especially what it would take to falsify them. What could someone show to you to prove that your views are false?
  - insickness 5y ago
    My point is that the "misinformation" label has constantly been used as a cover to censor. Two cases in point: 1. To say that Covid may have originated in a lab would get you censored on youtube, facebook and most other social media. It was misinformation until it wasn't. Now the lab leak theory is just as viable. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/26/facebook-ban-covid-man-made-491053 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/26/facebook-ban-covid-... 2. When the story of Hunter Biden's laptop first broke, it was labeled by most mainstream media, along with 50 intelligence experts, as Russian propaganda. Now even the New York Times admits that it was authentic. https://www.wsj.com/articles/all-the-news-thats-finally-fit-to-print-hunter-biden-laptop-new-york-post-new-york-times-joe-biden-11647637814 https://www.wsj.com/articles/all-the-news-thats-finally-fit-...
ddddfdohvsyknn 5y ago
I'm laughing at the word "nudgelord". That's a good one.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  It's a great little portmanteau, I had to look up exactly what he meant though: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/02/07/nudgelords/ https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/02/07/nudgelords...
drewcoo 5y ago
Doesn't it spread just like information?
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Issue being we don't know if it's information
Zealotux 5y ago
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes" – Author unclear Can we talk about the supposedly "cosmonauts arriving in the ISS wearing Ukraine's color" for a moment by the way? I saw that news posted at least 3 times today on HN, and it has been pushed all days on the front page on all media over here, I even got a notification on my phone from news outlets. But looking deeper into this: it seems like they've been using said suits since at least 2015, yet news outlet have _zero_ doubt this is a political message from the cosmonauts. I've been trying to take a step back from "news from the Ukrainian front" for a few days now to preserve my mental health and it's disturbing to notice just how heavily certain things are being pushed by media to fit a certain narrative, I'm in no way a Kremlin sympathizer but I truly feel like I'm "on the other side" and forced to buy into a certain idea of the truth.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- trhway 5y ago
  >But looking deeper into this: it seems like they've been using said suits since at least 2015, yet news outlet have _zero_ doubt this is a political message from the cosmonauts. The action here was not by choosing Ukrainian flag suits. Like in USSR back then and today in Russia it works in a quantum mechanics way, ie. the suits were already there and those cosmonauts and others involved around instead of paying political correct attention and blocking/replacing those suits - as everybody obviously understood the reaction these suits would produce - they just played dummy and used these suits "Oh! these are just what we've always been using."
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    That was pretty much my thought. Their alma mater's colors and the use of this color at some other point in the past decade gave them minimally plausible deniability. I don't completely discount the possibility of coincidental timing, but on balance I think that protesting their government's actions is plausible.
- pempem 5y ago
nonrandomstring 5y ago
And of course, one can use "true facts" to be dishonest as opposed to telling "unfortunate untruths" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keZbZL2ero https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keZbZL2ero
- JoBrad 5y ago
  I was 100% certain that was going to be a zefrank video.
akomtu 5y ago
Disinformation = ungood news pushed by an enemy state. Propaganda = disinformation from your own state. Misinformation = ungood news pushed by the right. Fake news = ungood news pushed by the left. So when I read "misinformation is ..." I already know it's the left complaining about the right.
coldcode 5y ago
The most valuable lesson people should learn is to be skeptical, or at least look for validation in hopefully uncorrelated sources. Not that it's an easy thing today. When the web first took over in the 90's many people thought that truth and facts would now be easier to see; instead it's even easier to spread whatever you want and people will believe it because it's on the internet. Sadly schools are failing to teach kids to validate and challenge everything; instead we get laws passed that require that kids never be shown anything that might make them upset. In the end much of society winds up believing whatever they are told because they have no framework to question anything.

74 points by tomrod 5y ago

Here’s a disturbing trend I’ve seen lately: Putin will say something regarding Ukraine, like for instance there are biolabs there which may be used to create biological WMDs. Then right wing media in America starts making the same claim. Trusted conservative voices like Tucker Carlson will spend a good portion of his show talking about the topic, and then he gets rebroadcast in Russia. Meanwhile, whatever he said starts finding it’s way all over the place, including right here on HN. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30640741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30640741 It appears that what’s happening is Putin’s propaganda is being laundered through right wing media, causing conservative Americans to support Putin’s worldview without them even knowing it. I don’t think these people are Putin sympathizers, but many don’t realize they’re pushing his lines. How do we counter this?

brandonmenc 5y ago
Victoria Nuland said: > Ukraine has biological research facilities and: > we are now in fact quite concerned that Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of [those labs], so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach If nothing dangerous is being done there, who cares if the Russians get a hold of them? I'm asking in good faith, because her attitude suggests these aren't just run of the mill labs. https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has...
- usernomdeguerre 5y ago
  It seems tautological that biological research facilities would have biological agents in them? And not a distant stones throw to assume a portion of those under study should not be let out of their cages? That is a substantively different claim than them having biological weapons or researching/producing such weapons, no? I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two?
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > I'm not sure I understand your confusion unless you are conflating the two? And this is the whole point. This right here. Putin has made a very strong claim based on a kernel of truth. That kernel of truth is seized upon and amplified, which serves to amplify the original very strong yet fallacious claim. - False Claim: Biolabs are being used by an American-supported Nazi regime to create a dangerous pathogen that will target Russians specifically with their DNA. - Kernel of truth: Biolabs exist and have dangerous things in them. They are being funded by money that has Western sources. - Laundered opinion: Biolabs are dangerous, we should do something about the biolabs. - Amplified feedback: Everyone agrees the Nazi-run biolabs have deadly things in them! Here are western personalities that are also very concerned about the biolabs, so I think we're all in agreement. They are using these deadly things to produce WMDs that are going to kill us! We have to do something drastic to stop them from using these weapons against us!
- ModernMech 5y ago
  Here's the thing about Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi and their substacks: they are part of that whole laundering of Russian propaganda. You have to stop and ask yourself why we are talking about biolabs at all in the first place. The reason is that Putin wants to talk about biolabs because a) he needs to bolster his case that Ukrainians are Nazis intent on killing Russians and b) he possibly is prepping for using biological/chemical WMDs himself, as Russians used this same kind of tactic in their previous aggressions: claim the other side is doing something, and then do that very same thing yourself. So what happens after Putin makes these claims? Well then Tucker Carlson helpfully comes in and airs a program where he does not make the same exact claims Putin makes, but he does this schtick where he "just asks questions," where the questions he is asking are quite provocative and tacitly align with the Kremlin position. Then the rest of the right-wing chorus comes along and we're all talking about biolabs at different levels, but the whole conversation is being seeded by Putin. What he does then is loop back this chatter on Russian state media. He uses it to show that actually "a lot of people, even in the West" are talking about Ukrainian biolabs and that the whole thing is a legitimate concern. Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. I don't pretend to know much about biolabs, although it sure seems there are a lot of experts nowadays. But the point is whatever discussion we are having about biolabs is not organic, and we need to be highly attuned to that fact. We also have to be attuned to the fact that people like Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine that they were shocked and flabbergasted when Putin actually crossed the border and began his slaughter. Matt Taibbi had to make a public apology based on how wrong he was. And the reason they were so wrong about this is because they have blinders on regarding Russia that have been erected over years, since at least 2016. These blinders prevented them from seeing the obvious: that Putin was amassing a huge force at Ukraine's borders in preparation for an invasion. Because what were they doing during this period? They were again, carrying Putin's water and parroting Putin's position that he was not going to invade at all. So really, I don't know how they have any credibility whatsoever at this point.
  - brandonmenc 5y ago
    I knew I shouldn't have linked to Greenwald. Just like, address the direct quote from Nuland. > Now there a may or may not be concerns about biolabs. There are concerns about biolabs. Nuland said exactly that. She even used the word "concern". They are - I'm guessing from the context - unique enough that the Russians don't have labs like this, otherwise who cares if the Russians capture them? Am I just ignorant about non-weapons biolabs here? > Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald were so wrong about Putin's intentions regarding Ukraine OK. And? They've acknowledged this. If being wrong about a thing disqualifies all your future reporting, then I shouldn't believe anyone. And if we're talking about people being wrong about Putin's intentions, go back and watch the media and Democratic politicians mock Romney when he suggested back in the 2012 Presidential Debates that Putin was a threat - but now I have to believe everything those people say but Greenwald and Taibbi are off limits?
- sydd 5y ago
  OK, here is some fact checking about the biolabs, spoiler: its Russian propaganda to justify their war and to shift the conversation. - The US and Ukraine denies it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhbNgBD4Vg https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... - There was a collaboration signed between US DoD and Ukraine's ministry of health: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukraine-Weapons.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukra... Its goal is to handle the pathogens dating from the Soviet era https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-star/ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/96323414/the-indianapolis-st... - Ukraine is not alone with such collaboration with the US, e.g. Kazahstan and Georgia have similar projects too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9cCqChMLs - the labs themselves are not secret, their researchers publish frequently and they are under Ukrainian authority, no US scientist work there https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biological-laboratories-in-ukraine.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/sbu-no-us-biologic... If you think about it the whole thing is totally illogical, why would the US build top secret labs outside American soil, in a country famous for corruption and whose neighbor is the USA's archenemy? Its like moving the Pentagon to Moscow.
quinnjh 5y ago
Maybe we could innoculate our populace with truth that aligns with facts-on-the-ground? I mean inagine if russia dropped the biolabs propoganda and americans were like "yeah i know, my tax dollars help pay for that to preserve my nations interests abroad" Its not hard to understand why people are uncomfortable injecting something harmful in small dose- but its how we develop a proper immune response. We need to think big picture biosecurity in information domain.

qiskit 5y ago

I agree with most points in the blog except for the last point which struck me as a bit of misinformation itself. > P.S. Yet another form of misinformation is political lies of the sort that we’ve been seeing most notoriously from Russian propaganda lately. Considering that most russian media is banned/censored in the west, it's highly unlikely that we are seeing much russian propaganda. Instead, the political misinformation we've been seeing are western propaganda. Across all social media and all news platforms, it's been 24/7 western propaganda. Even here, we've had daily western propaganda. I don't remember a single russian propaganda post hitting the frontpage. I don't think anyone can seriously claim the political misinformation we are experience are russian propaganda. It's most definitely anti-russian western propaganda. If I'm wrong, I'd love to see examples of social media or news stations/papers/etc that are running russian propaganda. Obviously russians in russia are being bombarded with russian propaganda. I doubt anyone in NY or columbia is.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Considering that most russian media is banned/censored in the west, it's highly unlikely that we are seeing much russian propaganda. Russian propaganda has always been distributed through channels that beyond Russian media. In the US, specifically, Russia has substantial influence with the American Left whose survival of the fall of the USSR into kleptocratic capitalist Russia is an...interesting arc, and has cultivated newer channels through the American far right (particularly White nationalist groups) as well. While there is almost certainly ongoing direct active influence through both groups, even beyond that plenty in both actively seek out Russian media (which, even though most has shut down operations in the west) is trivial to access from the West if you are actively seeking it out and repeat narratives received through it.
quinnjh 5y ago
At this point, true facts are considered russian propoganda when the press secretary has an agenda of full fiction.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  Hunter Biden’s lost laptop confirmed real by the New York Times this week. A video that was on it of him sitting nearly naked in a hotel room, smoking crack rocks, and telling a hooker how his last laptop was stolen by Russians and they were trying to blackmail him - completely skipped over. When asked about the absolutely real laptop, she deflected to say it’s proven that Russians have been spreading misinformation. The media double standard is infuriating.

agumonkey 5y ago

Since the war I also noticed a fractal rabbit-hole flavor of the fog of war. You can be argued into oblivion because of past information. While trying to discuss with both camps I see incomplete arguments, referring to previous arguments, that refers to previous arguments. The current conflict being partly due to west/east tensions, birth of nato, cold war.. you can even go back to 1917 according to wikipedia. You can also read articles or books and may never be able to conclude anything [0]. I'm not sure it's coordinated fuzzing at the social level. Just say whatever and point fingers at "facts" so the other camp starts to wonder if there's something, meanwhile you keep doing what you do (invade). [0] fans of Burn after reading might rejoyce.

WalterGR 5y ago
It seems like you’re referring to the origins of the conflict and not what’s happening on the ground right now. It also seems like you’re not sure who’s to blame for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Is that the case? I'm not sure it's coordinated fuzzing at the social level. What would that look like? People on opposite sides making opposing claims? What about meta-commentary that both sides have equally compelling arguments and that it’s impossible to know which side is right?
- agumonkey 5y ago
  No, I'm wondering if internet gave the idea to some state security agency to cook a mind vacuum by showing bits of potential evidence (1991 agreements, past aggressions, shifting blame) so that people will waste time and energy in sterile debate. I was reading a series on a .ru sites about history of russian computing, whose author claimed a lot of faults with the soviet system that caused a their demise. But in the comments a few russians (or bots ... I don't know anything anymore at that point) were quick to point at that, the author analysis was fragile, giving him other data points about missing events, or developments. All to say that even when you try to document yourself.. you never know the whole story. Unless maybe you start an absolute quest of truth to cross all data points. And even then, data can still be wrong (people might forget to record stuff, or deliberately ignore some).

stolenmerch 5y ago

There's another related phenomenon where a claim can be true and false at the same time yet many people get trapped attempting to prove the claim's veracity in a series of "no, actually..." proofs. Each party thinks they have the "actual" truth and both are just spinning around the same nebulous. Examples of this are hard to provide because they only spawn a new version of the controversy. The fantastic story "Sort By Controversial" gives you a glimpse into this occurrence. [0] [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/

Markoff 5y ago

I like how he mentioned Russian propaganda, but completely ignores Ukrainian one which is uncritically published by all MSM. These last two pandemic years taught me to have absolute distrust in MSM, since as we all seen difference between "misinformation" and truth is few months. It seems this shrank during UA war from months to hours, the best examples immediately forgotten by MSM being famous Ghost of Kiev, Snake island hero zombie soldiers or Mariupol drama theater with 1000 dead/trapped people under rubble with moving satellite photo of KIDS sign yet NOT A SINGLE photo of anyone trying to rescue them, not a single ambulance, digger, dead body etc and let's ignore fact people spreading "misinformation" wrote about this bombing 3 days prior it on Twitter. https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1502875319170387968 https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/15028753191703879... And speaking about supporting UA with colors same happened with Chinese CCTV news anchor where someone completely changed colors of her dress from green to blue and then spread this changed image for Ukrainian propaganda purposes all over social media, you can see social media photo and real colors in video here: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4458635 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4458635 And let's forget Pandora papers corrupted Zelensky suddenly becoming The Saint in MSM, while it's same corrupted scumbag as Putin.

CrzyLngPwd 5y ago

I'm worn out by the news, the transparent propaganda on both sides, the screaming for war from some small but vocal groups, and the general feeling of doom when I think about what is happening in Ukraine. I have no faith in the MSM any more, and I find the war news is also infecting other areas of life. I think, having been bombarded with claims and counter claims for the last few years, and seeing media shutting down discussion that doesn't fit, I am utterly exhausted by it. What's a guy to do?

notRobot 5y ago

General comment: I wish more articles would correctly use "misinformation" or "disinformation" depending on the context. Disinformation is the deliberate spreading of false information to mislead the audience.

sammalloy 5y ago
The pattern we tend to see is that it’s disinformation at the higher levels of distribution, but misinformation at the lower levels, like Facebook friends sharing health, politics, or racist propaganda between accounts. There have been several write ups about how all of this works since the mid-2010s. One of the most fascinating and disturbing disinformation networks that I’ve ever ever seen is a 2020 analysis of the propaganda web network created by Mike Adams of NaturalNews.com by ISD: https://www.isdglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/20200620-ISDG-NaturalNews-Briefing-V4.pdf https://www.isdglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2020062... To me, it looks like a foreign-influence operation intended to degrade and disrupt the exchange of free ideas in the US by injecting total nonsense into discussions about health and politics. A lot of Mike Adams’ disinformation is distributed as misinformation by unintended, and unwitting secondhand participants, like right-wing conservative blogs and pundits. Edit: I forgot to mention that since this initial report came out in 2020, there’s been further revelations about how the NaturalNews network hired hackers to build their extensive network and help disseminate propaganda. > Disinformation guru “Hacker X” names his employer: NaturalNews.com https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/10/disinformation-guru-hacker-x-names-his-employer-naturalnews-com/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/10/disinformation-g... > “Hacker X”—the American who built a pro-Trump fake news empire—unmasks himself https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/10/hacker-x-the-american-who-built-a-pro-trump-fake-news-empire-unmasks-himself/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/10/hacke...

insickness 5y ago

> Yet another form of misinformation is political lies of the sort that we’ve been seeing most notoriously from Russian propaganda lately. Are you referring to propaganda that Russia is spreading or the labeling of anyone who disagrees with the common narrative as Russian propaganda? It would seem to be there's a lot more of the second going on. Likewise, as much misinformation as there is going around, there's just as much labeling things as disinformation in order wield political muscle, which was rampant for the last two years during covid.

estaseuropano 5y ago
This appears to be a strange self-conversation. You take words and twist them until they fit a point you wanted to make. Apparently you believe in things that most don't believe and that have been labeled (by whom?) as Russian propaganda. What does this add or subtract to the article? And if I dare say so: if others get the impression that ideas you share are propaganda it is worth reflecting how you formed these opinions/beliefs. We are all victims of one form of propaganda or anotherz so it is generally a good idea to sometimes question whether important beliefs are indeed true, and especially what it would take to falsify them. What could someone show to you to prove that your views are false?
- insickness 5y ago
  My point is that the "misinformation" label has constantly been used as a cover to censor. Two cases in point: 1. To say that Covid may have originated in a lab would get you censored on youtube, facebook and most other social media. It was misinformation until it wasn't. Now the lab leak theory is just as viable. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/26/facebook-ban-covid-man-made-491053 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/26/facebook-ban-covid-... 2. When the story of Hunter Biden's laptop first broke, it was labeled by most mainstream media, along with 50 intelligence experts, as Russian propaganda. Now even the New York Times admits that it was authentic. https://www.wsj.com/articles/all-the-news-thats-finally-fit-to-print-hunter-biden-laptop-new-york-post-new-york-times-joe-biden-11647637814 https://www.wsj.com/articles/all-the-news-thats-finally-fit-...

ddddfdohvsyknn 5y ago

I'm laughing at the word "nudgelord". That's a good one.

kingcharles 5y ago
It's a great little portmanteau, I had to look up exactly what he meant though: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/02/07/nudgelords/ https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/02/07/nudgelords...

drewcoo 5y ago

Doesn't it spread just like information?

agumonkey 5y ago
Issue being we don't know if it's information

Zealotux 5y ago

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes" – Author unclear Can we talk about the supposedly "cosmonauts arriving in the ISS wearing Ukraine's color" for a moment by the way? I saw that news posted at least 3 times today on HN, and it has been pushed all days on the front page on all media over here, I even got a notification on my phone from news outlets. But looking deeper into this: it seems like they've been using said suits since at least 2015, yet news outlet have _zero_ doubt this is a political message from the cosmonauts. I've been trying to take a step back from "news from the Ukrainian front" for a few days now to preserve my mental health and it's disturbing to notice just how heavily certain things are being pushed by media to fit a certain narrative, I'm in no way a Kremlin sympathizer but I truly feel like I'm "on the other side" and forced to buy into a certain idea of the truth.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
trhway 5y ago
>But looking deeper into this: it seems like they've been using said suits since at least 2015, yet news outlet have _zero_ doubt this is a political message from the cosmonauts. The action here was not by choosing Ukrainian flag suits. Like in USSR back then and today in Russia it works in a quantum mechanics way, ie. the suits were already there and those cosmonauts and others involved around instead of paying political correct attention and blocking/replacing those suits - as everybody obviously understood the reaction these suits would produce - they just played dummy and used these suits "Oh! these are just what we've always been using."
- ineedasername 5y ago
  That was pretty much my thought. Their alma mater's colors and the use of this color at some other point in the past decade gave them minimally plausible deniability. I don't completely discount the possibility of coincidental timing, but on balance I think that protesting their government's actions is plausible.
pempem 5y ago

nonrandomstring 5y ago

And of course, one can use "true facts" to be dishonest as opposed to telling "unfortunate untruths" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keZbZL2ero https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keZbZL2ero

JoBrad 5y ago
I was 100% certain that was going to be a zefrank video.

akomtu 5y ago

Disinformation = ungood news pushed by an enemy state. Propaganda = disinformation from your own state. Misinformation = ungood news pushed by the right. Fake news = ungood news pushed by the left. So when I read "misinformation is ..." I already know it's the left complaining about the right.

coldcode 5y ago

The most valuable lesson people should learn is to be skeptical, or at least look for validation in hopefully uncorrelated sources. Not that it's an easy thing today. When the web first took over in the 90's many people thought that truth and facts would now be easier to see; instead it's even easier to spread whatever you want and people will believe it because it's on the internet. Sadly schools are failing to teach kids to validate and challenge everything; instead we get laws passed that require that kids never be shown anything that might make them upset. In the end much of society winds up believing whatever they are told because they have no framework to question anything.