4 ms·

Maybe don't boot your Macs into third-party operating systems (high potential for thermal damage or even misconfiguring mainboard components such that it might

by vaxman 5y ago

Maybe don't boot your Macs into third-party operating systems (high potential for thermal damage or even misconfiguring mainboard components such that it might cause data loss even when rebooted back into macOS ..if the BSP devs at Apple were sloppy in their initialization code or an "unknown state" is created). Linux on Mac, A/UX, etc. was a Thing back in the day when clock rates were lower and component densities were lower and the machines came chalk full of holes to let the heat out, so running the system "out of spec" had less potential for permanent damage. Apple-sanctioned alternative operating systems such as VMware ESXi have also caused problems in the past and should not be used at all anymore because Apple does not seem to play well with others on that level (by releasing uncoordinated firmware updates).

emptyparadise 5y ago
This website is called Hacker News!
- vaxman 5y ago
  but not Hacksaw News but point well taken. Unfortunately, the most exotic alternative OS that Macs support is BootCamp and that’s not yet for ARM so hack away while booted into Darwin (macOS) using a VM. I recommend Zephyr for big time hacking fun! :)
stjohnswarts 5y ago
lol now that's the spirit of adventure I expect! You're not going to burn up a chip as long as it has a heatsink on it. All modern cpus have thermal trips to reset when it gets too hot. You might scramble your hard drive of course butnothing you can't recover from
- vaxman 5y ago
  Intel processor yes, Apple processor unknown and what about GPUs and nVME, dried up caps, melted ribbon connectors on the board interconnects causing short circuits…all well known issues that come from the fragile thermal dynamic designs on past Macs and all issues that are pushed to extreme by not knowing when or how to interact with the proprietary firmware from within alternate kernel modules.
  - tcmart14 5y ago
    And the asahi linux project has been hacking away at linux on the M1 family without any issues....
    - vaxman 5y ago
      Component failure due to thermal issues (in this case, not knowing the protocols or facilities for controlling the custom cooling features) don’t typically manifest overnight. My point is “novices beware” —but writing that would challenge some students into this fool’s errand that ends with the demise of their Mac.
Epiphany21 5y ago
>don't boot your Macs into third-party operating systems (high potential for thermal damage or even misconfiguring mainboard components such that it might cause data loss even when rebooted back into macOS I see this fantastical claim thrown around on all kinds of forums, of course never with sources cited. There shouldn't be any potential for thermal damage from software. There should be very simple low level circuitry on the board that cuts power after a critical temperature is exceeded, regardless of how the OS or firmware are set up. Many consumer devices have something like this so that they don't melt down and hurt people. Are you trying to say that Apple isn't including basic safety features anymore?
- vaxman 5y ago
  Thanks for helping me get downvoted. I am a source, of course, for these claims and the Internet is littered with relevant testimonials. Expect the hysteresis shutdown to allow for UL-like protection of the consumer, not say, the D500 GPUs in the trashmacs.
  - Epiphany21 5y ago
    You are most welcome. I just so happen to be a hobbyist who has had my hands on almost every generation of Mac from the later 68k models to the Intel platforms up to around 2012. And I have booted NetBSD or some kind of Linux on almost all of them. They did not overheat or suffer any damage. In fact, my hottest running Macs in my collection, the G4 PowerBooks, run cooler under Linux than OS X 10.5 I still think you're grossly overstating the risks of modes of failure that just don't happen that often.
Maursault 5y ago
> running the system "out of spec" had less potential for permanent damage You may have a point, unless this insinuated physical damage from altOS on Apple Silicon never appears. > Apple-sanctioned alternative operating systems such as VMware ESXi have also caused problems in the past and should not be used at all anymore VMWare currently supports running their bare metal hypervisor on (at least) Intel Mac hardware (except for Mac Pro due to COVID straining VMWare development, and not because ESXi causes Mac Pros to detonate), but does not consider any Mac with VMWare an enterprise-grade setup. > because Apple does not seem to play well with others on that level (by releasing uncoordinated firmware updates). Please accept some humble advice: since there are three and only three reasons to update anything: bugfixes, pressing security issues and the last a need for new features, generally, one should never update firmware, and this is especially true the moment the update appears. In the first case, unless the bug prevents booting, it couldn't be less important, secondly, worrying about firmware security issues is silly, because if you can't physically prevent access to the computer, it's pwned anyway no matter how secure the firmware is. And in the last case, if you have a functioning system in production, then it doesn't need new features, get out of here with needing new features on production. The notion is absurd on it's face.
- bitwize 5y ago
  > secondly, worrying about firmware security issues is silly, because if you can't physically prevent access to the computer, it's pwned anyway no matter how secure the firmware is. Not true. Apple hired some of the best security experts in the world to build a system that was resistant to pwnage even if the attacker has physical access to the machine: https://mobile.twitter.com/XenoKovah/status/1425800637166596101 https://mobile.twitter.com/XenoKovah/status/1425800637166596...
  - legalcorrection 5y ago
    I just want to point out that this tweet is wrong when it claims that Secure Boot does not protect against physical presence attacks. This misunderstands the point of Secure Boot. Secure Boot can indeed be disabled, but that will change the TPM PCR values, so assuming a standard BitLocker configuration, the TPM will fail to unlock the BitLocker key. So if you try to disable Secure Boot on such a machine, you will be unable to boot unless you have the BitLocker recovery key.

by vaxman 5y ago

emptyparadise 5y ago

This website is called Hacker News!

vaxman 5y ago
but not Hacksaw News but point well taken. Unfortunately, the most exotic alternative OS that Macs support is BootCamp and that’s not yet for ARM so hack away while booted into Darwin (macOS) using a VM. I recommend Zephyr for big time hacking fun! :)

stjohnswarts 5y ago

lol now that's the spirit of adventure I expect! You're not going to burn up a chip as long as it has a heatsink on it. All modern cpus have thermal trips to reset when it gets too hot. You might scramble your hard drive of course butnothing you can't recover from

vaxman 5y ago
Intel processor yes, Apple processor unknown and what about GPUs and nVME, dried up caps, melted ribbon connectors on the board interconnects causing short circuits…all well known issues that come from the fragile thermal dynamic designs on past Macs and all issues that are pushed to extreme by not knowing when or how to interact with the proprietary firmware from within alternate kernel modules.
- tcmart14 5y ago
  And the asahi linux project has been hacking away at linux on the M1 family without any issues....
  - vaxman 5y ago
    Component failure due to thermal issues (in this case, not knowing the protocols or facilities for controlling the custom cooling features) don’t typically manifest overnight. My point is “novices beware” —but writing that would challenge some students into this fool’s errand that ends with the demise of their Mac.

Epiphany21 5y ago

>don't boot your Macs into third-party operating systems (high potential for thermal damage or even misconfiguring mainboard components such that it might cause data loss even when rebooted back into macOS I see this fantastical claim thrown around on all kinds of forums, of course never with sources cited. There shouldn't be any potential for thermal damage from software. There should be very simple low level circuitry on the board that cuts power after a critical temperature is exceeded, regardless of how the OS or firmware are set up. Many consumer devices have something like this so that they don't melt down and hurt people. Are you trying to say that Apple isn't including basic safety features anymore?

vaxman 5y ago
Thanks for helping me get downvoted. I am a source, of course, for these claims and the Internet is littered with relevant testimonials. Expect the hysteresis shutdown to allow for UL-like protection of the consumer, not say, the D500 GPUs in the trashmacs.
- Epiphany21 5y ago
  You are most welcome. I just so happen to be a hobbyist who has had my hands on almost every generation of Mac from the later 68k models to the Intel platforms up to around 2012. And I have booted NetBSD or some kind of Linux on almost all of them. They did not overheat or suffer any damage. In fact, my hottest running Macs in my collection, the G4 PowerBooks, run cooler under Linux than OS X 10.5 I still think you're grossly overstating the risks of modes of failure that just don't happen that often.

Maursault 5y ago

> running the system "out of spec" had less potential for permanent damage You may have a point, unless this insinuated physical damage from altOS on Apple Silicon never appears. > Apple-sanctioned alternative operating systems such as VMware ESXi have also caused problems in the past and should not be used at all anymore VMWare currently supports running their bare metal hypervisor on (at least) Intel Mac hardware (except for Mac Pro due to COVID straining VMWare development, and not because ESXi causes Mac Pros to detonate), but does not consider any Mac with VMWare an enterprise-grade setup. > because Apple does not seem to play well with others on that level (by releasing uncoordinated firmware updates). Please accept some humble advice: since there are three and only three reasons to update anything: bugfixes, pressing security issues and the last a need for new features, generally, one should never update firmware, and this is especially true the moment the update appears. In the first case, unless the bug prevents booting, it couldn't be less important, secondly, worrying about firmware security issues is silly, because if you can't physically prevent access to the computer, it's pwned anyway no matter how secure the firmware is. And in the last case, if you have a functioning system in production, then it doesn't need new features, get out of here with needing new features on production. The notion is absurd on it's face.

bitwize 5y ago
> secondly, worrying about firmware security issues is silly, because if you can't physically prevent access to the computer, it's pwned anyway no matter how secure the firmware is. Not true. Apple hired some of the best security experts in the world to build a system that was resistant to pwnage even if the attacker has physical access to the machine: https://mobile.twitter.com/XenoKovah/status/1425800637166596101 https://mobile.twitter.com/XenoKovah/status/1425800637166596...
- legalcorrection 5y ago
  I just want to point out that this tweet is wrong when it claims that Secure Boot does not protect against physical presence attacks. This misunderstands the point of Secure Boot. Secure Boot can indeed be disabled, but that will change the TPM PCR values, so assuming a standard BitLocker configuration, the TPM will fail to unlock the BitLocker key. So if you try to disable Secure Boot on such a machine, you will be unable to boot unless you have the BitLocker recovery key.