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BGP is pretty foundational to the internet. At some point, you have to assume hour audience knows the basics. Not everything is an intro. Also, if you don’t kn

BGP is pretty foundational to the internet. At some point, you have to assume hour audience knows the basics. Not everything is an intro. Also, if you don’t know what BGP is, you aren’t going to be interested in a project implementing BGP.

teeray 5y ago
It’s still wise to define acronyms before you use them to enable future Googling (links are better!). Three extra words is a small price to pay to make documentation more friendly to newcomers.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  I just looked up BGP on DDG. The first ten hits explained it without even clicking on them. If something isn’t clear on HN, try searching for it. If you don’t find it immediately, then you can ask without losing face.
- chockchocschoir 5y ago
  Again, at one point you have to assume either basic knowledge or at least basic knowledge about how to search for things, otherwise everything would be very verbose. Take one of your repositories as an example: https://github.com/timraymond/pricegrabber https://github.com/timraymond/pricegrabber > A gem for interacting with the Pricegrabber API Should you have to add "Application Programming Interface (API)" the first time you use "API" anywhere? Realistically no, because the audience can be assumed to understand what it means. If they don't, it's only a search away. Same goes for networking and DNS/BGP/CNAME and more. If you're using a library/server for BGP, you either know what those terms are, or know how to find out more. But not all resources are meant for beginning who don't know the basic terms in a field, and that's OK, because otherwise everything would be extremely verbose when it doesn't have to.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - spc476 5y ago
    HTML does have the <ABBR> tag. I use it all the time on my blog any time I use an acronym [1]. At least Firefox and Safari will display the title attribute as a tool tip, so hovering over the following HTML: "<abbr title="Border Gateway Protocol">BGP</abbr>" on those browsers will show "Border Gateway Protocol". I'm sad that it's not used more often. [1] An example: http://boston.conman.org/2022/02/16.1 http://boston.conman.org/2022/02/16.1
  - 0x20cowboy 5y ago
    Of course, you can do whatever you like, but so far everyone who has thrown up such protest over this has done so by literally writing out definitions to show how hard it would be :-/
    - politician 5y ago
      Does spelling out Border Gateway Protocol even help here?
0x20cowboy 5y ago
I’ve been on the internet for quite a long time, but I’ve never heard of it before. So maybe it’s basic knowledge for a given discipline, but maybe not for others? It’s also, I assume by the authors, submitted to hackernews which is a pretty diverse place. “Basics” is relative. I am not saying there should be a dissertation about how the thing works, but it’s generally bad form to use abbreviations without using the long form at least once - for people who would indeed like to search for more information.
- AlphaSite 5y ago
  If you don’t know what BGP is you probably don’t need to know about it . It’s only really needed for configuring large networks.
  - politician 5y ago
    > large networks Like the Internet... way to understate it.
  - kloch 5y ago
    BGP can be used for small things too. Many enterprises use it for their connectivity. If you are multihomed it's basically essential. Even if you are not multihomed BGP is the most robust way to handle failover between two uplinks to the same ISP. If you are not using full routes and just taking default from each ISP the requirements/load on your router(s) are almost nothing. Another popular use case is inside private networks, especially over GRE tunnel meshes where the filtering features of BGP allow better/easier control over topology than OSPF. I've even seen individual servers use BGP for anycasting (usually DNS servers) or http load balancing (with DSR and L4 hashing on the upstream router).
    - AlphaSite 5y ago
      Sorry when I say large I include corporate networks where you want the sort of redundancy that IBGP can give you. I guess Large/medium would be a fair statement.
natefinch 5y ago
How can someone know if they're interested or not in an implementation of BGP if they don't know what it is? I have been a professional software developer for 22 years with a 4 year CS degree from a good school, and I only ever heard of BGP for the first time last year. Most developers never need to know about BGP. People learn new stuff every day. The point stands. Define your acronyms unless they're really really basic, like HTTP or JSON.
- platinumrad 5y ago
  HTTP and JSON may count as "really really basic" to you and BGP may not, but I worked on BGP years before I ever touched HTTP or JSON so the opposite would be true for me. People from different backgrounds are familiar with different acronyms and as a result different acronyms are assumed to be known in different contexts. Don't assume your experience to be universal.
  - innocentoldguy 5y ago
    It is good form in technical writing (or any writing, really), to define your acronyms the first time they are used. For example, this would have been helpful: "GoBGP is an open source Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) implementation..." Writers should never assume that knowledge of an acronym is universal.
    - markkrj 5y ago
      Would you post something like "go-json is an go implementation of JavaScript Object Notation"? Or "Nginx is an Hypertext Transfer Protocol Server"? Please.... It is not that hard to search for "BGP" on the web.
      - spc476 5y ago
        Maybe so, but I wrote about mixing acronyms towards the end of this post: <http://boston.conman.org/2003/11/19.2 http://boston.conman.org/2003/11/19.2>, where IRA can stand for one of three different things. My solution: use use <abbr> (<acronym> seems to be deprecated these days).

teeray 5y ago

It’s still wise to define acronyms before you use them to enable future Googling (links are better!). Three extra words is a small price to pay to make documentation more friendly to newcomers.

wrycoder 5y ago
I just looked up BGP on DDG. The first ten hits explained it without even clicking on them. If something isn’t clear on HN, try searching for it. If you don’t find it immediately, then you can ask without losing face.
chockchocschoir 5y ago
Again, at one point you have to assume either basic knowledge or at least basic knowledge about how to search for things, otherwise everything would be very verbose. Take one of your repositories as an example: https://github.com/timraymond/pricegrabber https://github.com/timraymond/pricegrabber > A gem for interacting with the Pricegrabber API Should you have to add "Application Programming Interface (API)" the first time you use "API" anywhere? Realistically no, because the audience can be assumed to understand what it means. If they don't, it's only a search away. Same goes for networking and DNS/BGP/CNAME and more. If you're using a library/server for BGP, you either know what those terms are, or know how to find out more. But not all resources are meant for beginning who don't know the basic terms in a field, and that's OK, because otherwise everything would be extremely verbose when it doesn't have to.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- spc476 5y ago
  HTML does have the <ABBR> tag. I use it all the time on my blog any time I use an acronym [1]. At least Firefox and Safari will display the title attribute as a tool tip, so hovering over the following HTML: "<abbr title="Border Gateway Protocol">BGP</abbr>" on those browsers will show "Border Gateway Protocol". I'm sad that it's not used more often. [1] An example: http://boston.conman.org/2022/02/16.1 http://boston.conman.org/2022/02/16.1
- 0x20cowboy 5y ago
  Of course, you can do whatever you like, but so far everyone who has thrown up such protest over this has done so by literally writing out definitions to show how hard it would be :-/
  - politician 5y ago
    Does spelling out Border Gateway Protocol even help here?

0x20cowboy 5y ago

I’ve been on the internet for quite a long time, but I’ve never heard of it before. So maybe it’s basic knowledge for a given discipline, but maybe not for others? It’s also, I assume by the authors, submitted to hackernews which is a pretty diverse place. “Basics” is relative. I am not saying there should be a dissertation about how the thing works, but it’s generally bad form to use abbreviations without using the long form at least once - for people who would indeed like to search for more information.

AlphaSite 5y ago
If you don’t know what BGP is you probably don’t need to know about it . It’s only really needed for configuring large networks.
- politician 5y ago
  > large networks Like the Internet... way to understate it.
- kloch 5y ago
  BGP can be used for small things too. Many enterprises use it for their connectivity. If you are multihomed it's basically essential. Even if you are not multihomed BGP is the most robust way to handle failover between two uplinks to the same ISP. If you are not using full routes and just taking default from each ISP the requirements/load on your router(s) are almost nothing. Another popular use case is inside private networks, especially over GRE tunnel meshes where the filtering features of BGP allow better/easier control over topology than OSPF. I've even seen individual servers use BGP for anycasting (usually DNS servers) or http load balancing (with DSR and L4 hashing on the upstream router).
  - AlphaSite 5y ago
    Sorry when I say large I include corporate networks where you want the sort of redundancy that IBGP can give you. I guess Large/medium would be a fair statement.

natefinch 5y ago

How can someone know if they're interested or not in an implementation of BGP if they don't know what it is? I have been a professional software developer for 22 years with a 4 year CS degree from a good school, and I only ever heard of BGP for the first time last year. Most developers never need to know about BGP. People learn new stuff every day. The point stands. Define your acronyms unless they're really really basic, like HTTP or JSON.

platinumrad 5y ago
HTTP and JSON may count as "really really basic" to you and BGP may not, but I worked on BGP years before I ever touched HTTP or JSON so the opposite would be true for me. People from different backgrounds are familiar with different acronyms and as a result different acronyms are assumed to be known in different contexts. Don't assume your experience to be universal.
- innocentoldguy 5y ago
  It is good form in technical writing (or any writing, really), to define your acronyms the first time they are used. For example, this would have been helpful: "GoBGP is an open source Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) implementation..." Writers should never assume that knowledge of an acronym is universal.
  - markkrj 5y ago
    Would you post something like "go-json is an go implementation of JavaScript Object Notation"? Or "Nginx is an Hypertext Transfer Protocol Server"? Please.... It is not that hard to search for "BGP" on the web.
    - spc476 5y ago
      Maybe so, but I wrote about mixing acronyms towards the end of this post: <http://boston.conman.org/2003/11/19.2 http://boston.conman.org/2003/11/19.2>, where IRA can stand for one of three different things. My solution: use use <abbr> (<acronym> seems to be deprecated these days).