4 ms·

I mostly agree... and I'd still argue that the FromSoft games kinda fail at the "knowledge gathering" phase. Walking into a boss that kills you in less than 20

I mostly agree... and I'd still argue that the FromSoft games kinda fail at the "knowledge gathering" phase. Walking into a boss that kills you in less than 20 seconds means very little knowledge can be gathered, and sometimes it takes minutes to go back and try again. This is a specific thing that Hollow Knight does pretty much perfectly: you can keep most bosses at bay, because the focus isn't usually to survive, but to find openings where you can safely do some damage. Needing game knowledge is a great approach to game design. Dispensing such knowledge in the random way FromSoft games do is not. And this goes beyond just the combat aspect. Equipment and items in FromSoft games usually have non-discoverable hidden effects that at best turn the game into a weird puzzle, and at worst draw parallels to graphic adventure games of old. Case in point: Father Gascoigne in Bloodborne. You can find a music box that staggers the boss if you use it during the battle. It makes some sense from a lore perspective, but it's pure bullshit from a game perspective.

mpfundstein 5y ago
can you elaborate why the music box is bullshit? because its use it not handed to you on a silver plate? dont you think thats part of the game design? that such things are 'secrets'? you can find and share with the community?
- vvillena 5y ago
  I think it's part of the game design. I also think it's bullshit from a game perspective. Tying the box to Gascoigne is a secret bordering on an easter egg. The item must be equipped in the usable items bar. And you have to use it on the very first battle against another hunter, an enemy who keeps attacking relentlessly and gives no time to think. Even more, the effect of the item doesn't give enough feedback to the player. That item is just one of many in that game. The end effect is that players have to either treat the game as an arcane puzzle, or just search for solutions and ruin the mystery. No middle ground. Even accessing the DLC content borders on bullshit! There's only one clue to find the solution that puts the player in the first DLC area, and finding it becomes a process of trying dumb things until you find the right one by pure chance. Of course, that creature did a different thing when you found it earlier, but the game usually rewrites its own rules constantly so that's less of a surprise. Players can do this... or just turn to a guide and forget about the "graphic-adventure-puzzle level of randomness" aspect of Bloodborne and the other FromSoft games. This is why I think this is a valid criticism. FromSoft games excel at world building, atmosphere, combat design, and music. But their approach to game knowledge is only enjoyed by those who love that arcane aspect, and the only way around it for those who love all else save for that part is to ruin the magic and reach for a guide. PD. Also, some text translations in Spanish do not manage to keep the knowledge clues present in the English version. Discovering that was not very fun.

mpfundstein 5y ago

can you elaborate why the music box is bullshit? because its use it not handed to you on a silver plate? dont you think thats part of the game design? that such things are 'secrets'? you can find and share with the community?

vvillena 5y ago
I think it's part of the game design. I also think it's bullshit from a game perspective. Tying the box to Gascoigne is a secret bordering on an easter egg. The item must be equipped in the usable items bar. And you have to use it on the very first battle against another hunter, an enemy who keeps attacking relentlessly and gives no time to think. Even more, the effect of the item doesn't give enough feedback to the player. That item is just one of many in that game. The end effect is that players have to either treat the game as an arcane puzzle, or just search for solutions and ruin the mystery. No middle ground. Even accessing the DLC content borders on bullshit! There's only one clue to find the solution that puts the player in the first DLC area, and finding it becomes a process of trying dumb things until you find the right one by pure chance. Of course, that creature did a different thing when you found it earlier, but the game usually rewrites its own rules constantly so that's less of a surprise. Players can do this... or just turn to a guide and forget about the "graphic-adventure-puzzle level of randomness" aspect of Bloodborne and the other FromSoft games. This is why I think this is a valid criticism. FromSoft games excel at world building, atmosphere, combat design, and music. But their approach to game knowledge is only enjoyed by those who love that arcane aspect, and the only way around it for those who love all else save for that part is to ruin the magic and reach for a guide. PD. Also, some text translations in Spanish do not manage to keep the knowledge clues present in the English version. Discovering that was not very fun.