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New York has an interesting History of projects being ramrodded through dubious means (at the expense of the public) under Robert Moses in the early 20th Centur

New York has an interesting History of projects being ramrodded through dubious means (at the expense of the public) under Robert Moses in the early 20th Century, I imagine stops were put in place to prevent that from occurring again.

bradleyjg 5y ago
It’s common wisdom to say these projects were dubious. There’s no question they came with costs—-but would we rather not have the BQE, Cross Bronx Expressway, or Brooklyn Battery Tunnel? I don’t think we would. It’s easy to fantasize about public transit alternatives but even with Robert Moses NYC is a significant outlier in the US for public transit both in the city and in the region.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  There’s a tail wagging the dog factor to the highway stuff. The FHA sealed the fate of those neighborhoods by cutting off the oxygen. I live in a small city that was carved up by redlining. My block was in the “yellow” zone, and the houses built after 1935 or so are very different than the houses on the next block, which is in the “green zone”. Yellow = Italians and Greeks, 1 and 2 family small houses. Green = old money types, bigger houses on fancy lots.
- lupire 5y ago
  Easy to say when your neighborhood wasn't the one destroyed.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    NYC is about change. If you want stability there’s the whole rest of the country. I have no patience for people that want it both ways.
- DogOfTheGaps 5y ago
  BQE and Cross-Bronx Expressway definitely not. Building highways through cities is extremely damaging and exist only to ferry suburbanites into and out of the city. Moses wanted to build a highway through Greenwich village. That would have been devastating for lower Manhattan. Intra-city Highways destroy the very vibrancy required for them to adapt and change. Brooklyn Battery Tunnel? That is a good project. Connecting different areas across bodies of water is good.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    That’s ideology over common sense. Which suburbanites are being ferried in and out of the city over the BQE? Hint: what it connects is right there in the name.
    - DogOfTheGaps 5y ago
      Fort Lee, NJ to Crown Heights, Brooklyn.
Spooky23 5y ago
The Moses story is more nuanced than that. Read the Caro book. Ultimately the triumph of Moses was understanding the nature of power and making key friends and allies who helped him wield it. He got shit done. In the beginning, this was enormously beneficial - the state and city park systems, key bridges, and the framework of competent engineering that blunted the impact of the depression… New York was uniquely able to benefit from New Deal programs, because of Moses. We remember the exclusionary bridges of the Northern State Parkway, but forget that these highways broke the Dutch legacy of quasi-feudal great estates and baymen who kept the public from the seashore. The problem is that his acquisition of power transitioned from triumph to tragedy. His friend Gov. Smith gave him ironclad control of key public authorities - he held 100 different jobs at one point. As in all cases, unchecked, unlimited power corrupts. Only Gov. Rockefeller was able to break the guy, and only because his family was his bankers. Moses’ empire ultimately saved NYC, as the subways would have been bankrupt without the toll bridges supporting the rail system. Today, New York has a murky soup of laws that give certain unions a lot of power, and require that projects are bid out with multiple prime contractors, etc. Between that and the political dynamic from the transportation system being controlled by the State (the governor controls the MTA) and the complex home rule of NYC, it’s a complicated mess. That said, NY is more functional than most other places when it comes to transit.
- slothtrop 5y ago
  I read the same book you did and your impression of him is too generous. Moses lied, cheated, and strong-armed his way to "getting things done".
- deanCommie 5y ago
  Complex historical men need deep layers of evaluation (See also: Columbus, Washington, etc) Layer 1: This is a great man who did great things (Moses: public projects) Layer 2: He was discriminatory, racist, and optimized for his ilk/kind whether it's racially, genderly, socio-economically, etc. (Moses: Focus on white people or at least those of sufficient socioeconomic class) Layer 3: Progress for SOME people is better than nothing. Improving public access and transportation for poor whites is better than not having anything at all. Layer 4: Partial progress is often used as an excuse to stop further progress. And if you promote one group at the expense of another, you arguably create MORE inequality not less. etc.
treeman79 5y ago
Is there any other way to actually get things done in such a dense area?

bradleyjg 5y ago

It’s common wisdom to say these projects were dubious. There’s no question they came with costs—-but would we rather not have the BQE, Cross Bronx Expressway, or Brooklyn Battery Tunnel? I don’t think we would. It’s easy to fantasize about public transit alternatives but even with Robert Moses NYC is a significant outlier in the US for public transit both in the city and in the region.

Spooky23 5y ago
There’s a tail wagging the dog factor to the highway stuff. The FHA sealed the fate of those neighborhoods by cutting off the oxygen. I live in a small city that was carved up by redlining. My block was in the “yellow” zone, and the houses built after 1935 or so are very different than the houses on the next block, which is in the “green zone”. Yellow = Italians and Greeks, 1 and 2 family small houses. Green = old money types, bigger houses on fancy lots.
lupire 5y ago
Easy to say when your neighborhood wasn't the one destroyed.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  NYC is about change. If you want stability there’s the whole rest of the country. I have no patience for people that want it both ways.
DogOfTheGaps 5y ago
BQE and Cross-Bronx Expressway definitely not. Building highways through cities is extremely damaging and exist only to ferry suburbanites into and out of the city. Moses wanted to build a highway through Greenwich village. That would have been devastating for lower Manhattan. Intra-city Highways destroy the very vibrancy required for them to adapt and change. Brooklyn Battery Tunnel? That is a good project. Connecting different areas across bodies of water is good.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  That’s ideology over common sense. Which suburbanites are being ferried in and out of the city over the BQE? Hint: what it connects is right there in the name.
  - DogOfTheGaps 5y ago
    Fort Lee, NJ to Crown Heights, Brooklyn.

Spooky23 5y ago

The Moses story is more nuanced than that. Read the Caro book. Ultimately the triumph of Moses was understanding the nature of power and making key friends and allies who helped him wield it. He got shit done. In the beginning, this was enormously beneficial - the state and city park systems, key bridges, and the framework of competent engineering that blunted the impact of the depression… New York was uniquely able to benefit from New Deal programs, because of Moses. We remember the exclusionary bridges of the Northern State Parkway, but forget that these highways broke the Dutch legacy of quasi-feudal great estates and baymen who kept the public from the seashore. The problem is that his acquisition of power transitioned from triumph to tragedy. His friend Gov. Smith gave him ironclad control of key public authorities - he held 100 different jobs at one point. As in all cases, unchecked, unlimited power corrupts. Only Gov. Rockefeller was able to break the guy, and only because his family was his bankers. Moses’ empire ultimately saved NYC, as the subways would have been bankrupt without the toll bridges supporting the rail system. Today, New York has a murky soup of laws that give certain unions a lot of power, and require that projects are bid out with multiple prime contractors, etc. Between that and the political dynamic from the transportation system being controlled by the State (the governor controls the MTA) and the complex home rule of NYC, it’s a complicated mess. That said, NY is more functional than most other places when it comes to transit.

slothtrop 5y ago
I read the same book you did and your impression of him is too generous. Moses lied, cheated, and strong-armed his way to "getting things done".
deanCommie 5y ago
Complex historical men need deep layers of evaluation (See also: Columbus, Washington, etc) Layer 1: This is a great man who did great things (Moses: public projects) Layer 2: He was discriminatory, racist, and optimized for his ilk/kind whether it's racially, genderly, socio-economically, etc. (Moses: Focus on white people or at least those of sufficient socioeconomic class) Layer 3: Progress for SOME people is better than nothing. Improving public access and transportation for poor whites is better than not having anything at all. Layer 4: Partial progress is often used as an excuse to stop further progress. And if you promote one group at the expense of another, you arguably create MORE inequality not less. etc.

treeman79 5y ago

Is there any other way to actually get things done in such a dense area?