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I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I understand that in theory, a game could require extremely good reacti

I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I understand that in theory, a game could require extremely good reaction times or complicated inputs which make it exclusive. But Elden Ring is definitely not hard in that respect. In fact, part of the difficulty is that all the animations are long and you can't cancel them. This actually removes the need for good reaction time -- you have more than enough time to hit a button when you know you will need to. The "difficulty" really arises from the need for game knowledge -- you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack which works well against a particular encounter. And find all the places you can upgrade your weapons and tools and such. After you do these things, the game is in fact quite easy. Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun of the game and I can't see how this is exclusionary toward anybody who would want to play. I suppose there is a segment of people who would like to see images of the game without doing that but honestly... just watch a Let's Play. That way you don't even need to pay for the game.

jrootabega 5y ago
The controversy (or rather the online dialogue about a controversy which may or may not really exist) over game difficulty is kind of a smaller proxy battle in a larger culture war, as well as a topic that tends to come up when megacorps can use it for self-promotion. e.g. Microsoft/Double Fine and Psychonauts 2. Have they said anything whatsoever about Elden Ring accessibility?
UncleMeat 5y ago
> I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I think this is uncharitable. You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I personally stopped playing the xbox360 version of DS1 because the goddamn giants in Lost Izalith kept respawning (something that was mercifully changed with patches). I'd have kept going if I had the patched (and easier) game.
- dkersten 5y ago
  > You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I think we have to accept that not every game is for every person. How adamantly FROM Software fans defend the difficulty shows that this style of game is greatly appreciated by many and, while it sucks to not be into that if the rest of the game looks good to you, I think we just have to be ok with the fact that ok maybe this game was made for people who are into that. Personally, I appreciate that FROM Software basically force me to learn their games mechanics rather than button mashing my way through, even if it is very frustrating in the moment. I know I'm not good enough to persevere if I could just play in easy mode, and I would have missed out on some truly exhilarating moments. I understand that that's just me and everyone is different, but I mean, there's plenty of games out there, not all have to cater to everyone. There are certainly plenty of games that I think look really cool but ultimately I don't feel are for me (most multiplayer games, really. Even if they look awesome, I just don't have the dedication for it). This is also why I think its important to watch gameplay videos before you buy, so that you know what you're getting yourself into.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    I do agree that not every game is for every person. I'd prefer it if the games could be made easier, but FromSoft can do what they want. What I find frustrating is that asking for this feature produces intense backlash in many communities. I'm not asking to be able to button mash my way through. Perhaps this is a problem with terms. I'd like a "hard but doable for me" mode. That mode is tuned lighter than the default tuning of the game as released. Consider that the games already come with many various forms of hard mode. You can do NG+ runs that are harder. You can do SL1 runs that are harder. You can put all of your souls into Resistance and waste your character. If the game shipped without level ups and everybody was forced into SL1 runs, would that make the game better? Surely for some people that'd place the difficulty right at their boundary of "hard, but doable." But for you (or certainly me) that'd be a frustrating wall.
    - dkersten 5y ago
      > What I find frustrating is that asking for this feature produces intense backlash in many communities. I can understand it though. I mean, leaving aside whether or not adding an easy mode actually affects the game for those who don't want to play in it. Its kinda like, the developers created a game that, as it stands, appeals to person A. Person B wants changes made or added to the game so that the game appeals more to them. Of course person A is going to be upset that others want the game changed to suit those other people, when it works perfectly fine for person A as is. For me, I know that adding an easy mode would affect my experience, but the reason for that is a me problem: because I know I don't have the tenacity to persevere if I have a choice to just play in easy instead (yet I also know that being forced to persevere has led to some of the greatest satisfaction I've gotten from playing games). That's my problem, though, but for me its like yeah well the game as is suits me, so.. please don't change it. Of course I totally understand that this is just me and that others could enjoy the game much more if this were added to the game, and I should just work on my self control in that area. But I totally get it, especially if this is the only thing that prevents someone from enjoying a game that in every other way would be enjoyable to them.
wpietri 5y ago
> you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack [...] Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun Different things are fun for different people. That sounds pretty tedious to me, a long slog of arbitrary "guess what the game designer is thinking of" puzzles. Especially when it's all built around killing, something that just doesn't interest me much. To each their own, I guess.
- vvillena 5y ago
  I agree. If I wanted to guess weird side effects of items when used in different ways, I wouldn't play Elden Ring. I'd play Monkey Island.
- kipchak 5y ago
  Most of these that I've come across are fairly intuitive. For example stone enemies being resistant to slashing damage, or dark ghosts being weak to holy damage. There's also typically a workaround, for example a jumping attack with a small slashing weapon does more physical damage.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I believe you, and it sounds like that is fun for you. Maybe I can explain by analogy. I'm very fond of the author Raymond Chandler, who wrote noir mysteries. I love his work, and especially the way he uses language. But I don't care at all who did it. The artificial puzzle aspect of mysteries just doesn't interest me. It's the same deal here. I get people like this kind of thing. I'm just saying I'm not one of those people. It sounds like I might appreciate the aesthetics of the game, so if I could play through it on easy mode, I might. Sort of the way I read through a mystery and am allowed to ignore the whodunnit aspect.
    - kipchak 5y ago
      I definitely get that it isn't for everyone. I'm not familiar with that author but I can relate via House Of Leaves and only really liking parts of it. Looking at it from the opposite side, some people have no problem with the gameplay, but pay little attention to the aesthetics or dialogue and lore or item descriptions. For them they can instead look up YouTube videos or Wiki articles to explain things. I don't think it's a bad thing those alternatives options exist, but I think adding say a logbook like in Outer Wilds would cheapen the experience for people who really want to get immersed in the world. I think practically watching a playthrough or just modding the game to make your character OP is the best workaround.
grogenaut 5y ago
Please continue to tell me that I'm having fun incorrectly. I'm 46, I have well over 10k hours in hundreds of video games. Been gaming since I had an Atari and games had no directions or guides like Indiana Jones. Having difficulty that I don't enjoy in a game is the number 2 reason after "it didn't click" that I abandon a game. There's literally nothing that stops me from reading a novel or watching a movie or walking through a museum or a world historical site to gate keep that experience. Games is the only one where we say "you must enjoy frustration or read spoilers to progress". Just gate keeping that great artistic vision. If it is art worth the experience it shouldn't behind a wall saying "get gud to enter". Let people experience it how they can or want to or have time to. We're no longer charging quarters based on deaths but that still has it's tendrils in our artform. To be clear I die a ton in games, I also appreciate it when the game is like ok buddy you tried you can go forward like gta5/gth2. I died 10 times to gremlin shamans in valheim yesterday, but that isn't gatekeeping some artwork, and that game has creative mode.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  Great points. I’m turning 40 in a few couple months, so I saw a mostly saw it all since the beginning as well, from Kings Quest till games today as they evolved. I would concisely boil my view down to, and I think you’ll agree: I prefer games be fun even when losing. For me that says it all. And I don’t find the Souls games fun. Too much 3D camera control, and frustrating rather than fun when dying. I think if you removed the beautiful graphics, few people would play them. I also think the player base for these titles are going to skew younger, those who haven’t experienced as much as we have. I see nothing special in them at all. They landed on no magic for me. The game that brought me to this realization that a good game should be fun even when losing is League of Legends. While there’s too many kids that think the fun is only in stomping out the opponent quickly or they want to quit, for me that game is fun in the struggle for a comeback. And I’m still mysteriously unbothered when I lose. I enjoy it all the way. For me, that’s the mark of a good game. And it’s probably not a coincidence that it’s the most popular video game in the world.
- ng12 5y ago
  For my part I don't enjoy games where the gameplay is just something you do to experience a story. Last of Us is a good example. Great story, great atmosphere, bored to tears playing it. If Dark Souls were easy I would probably feel the same. It's also important to appreciate how difficult it is to balance a game especially when your character's power level increases throughout the game. Most games that have a hard mode are lazy: bosses just have more health or enemies suddenly get headshots all the time. The game needs to be balanced around an intended difficulty level to make it compelling. It takes a lot of talent to make a good difficulty curve, as proven by the lame ripoffs of Souls games that have come out over the years.
vvillena 5y ago
I mostly agree... and I'd still argue that the FromSoft games kinda fail at the "knowledge gathering" phase. Walking into a boss that kills you in less than 20 seconds means very little knowledge can be gathered, and sometimes it takes minutes to go back and try again. This is a specific thing that Hollow Knight does pretty much perfectly: you can keep most bosses at bay, because the focus isn't usually to survive, but to find openings where you can safely do some damage. Needing game knowledge is a great approach to game design. Dispensing such knowledge in the random way FromSoft games do is not. And this goes beyond just the combat aspect. Equipment and items in FromSoft games usually have non-discoverable hidden effects that at best turn the game into a weird puzzle, and at worst draw parallels to graphic adventure games of old. Case in point: Father Gascoigne in Bloodborne. You can find a music box that staggers the boss if you use it during the battle. It makes some sense from a lore perspective, but it's pure bullshit from a game perspective.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  can you elaborate why the music box is bullshit? because its use it not handed to you on a silver plate? dont you think thats part of the game design? that such things are 'secrets'? you can find and share with the community?
  - vvillena 5y ago
    I think it's part of the game design. I also think it's bullshit from a game perspective. Tying the box to Gascoigne is a secret bordering on an easter egg. The item must be equipped in the usable items bar. And you have to use it on the very first battle against another hunter, an enemy who keeps attacking relentlessly and gives no time to think. Even more, the effect of the item doesn't give enough feedback to the player. That item is just one of many in that game. The end effect is that players have to either treat the game as an arcane puzzle, or just search for solutions and ruin the mystery. No middle ground. Even accessing the DLC content borders on bullshit! There's only one clue to find the solution that puts the player in the first DLC area, and finding it becomes a process of trying dumb things until you find the right one by pure chance. Of course, that creature did a different thing when you found it earlier, but the game usually rewrites its own rules constantly so that's less of a surprise. Players can do this... or just turn to a guide and forget about the "graphic-adventure-puzzle level of randomness" aspect of Bloodborne and the other FromSoft games. This is why I think this is a valid criticism. FromSoft games excel at world building, atmosphere, combat design, and music. But their approach to game knowledge is only enjoyed by those who love that arcane aspect, and the only way around it for those who love all else save for that part is to ruin the magic and reach for a guide. PD. Also, some text translations in Spanish do not manage to keep the knowledge clues present in the English version. Discovering that was not very fun.

jrootabega 5y ago

The controversy (or rather the online dialogue about a controversy which may or may not really exist) over game difficulty is kind of a smaller proxy battle in a larger culture war, as well as a topic that tends to come up when megacorps can use it for self-promotion. e.g. Microsoft/Double Fine and Psychonauts 2. Have they said anything whatsoever about Elden Ring accessibility?

UncleMeat 5y ago

> I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I think this is uncharitable. You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I personally stopped playing the xbox360 version of DS1 because the goddamn giants in Lost Izalith kept respawning (something that was mercifully changed with patches). I'd have kept going if I had the patched (and easier) game.

dkersten 5y ago
> You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I think we have to accept that not every game is for every person. How adamantly FROM Software fans defend the difficulty shows that this style of game is greatly appreciated by many and, while it sucks to not be into that if the rest of the game looks good to you, I think we just have to be ok with the fact that ok maybe this game was made for people who are into that. Personally, I appreciate that FROM Software basically force me to learn their games mechanics rather than button mashing my way through, even if it is very frustrating in the moment. I know I'm not good enough to persevere if I could just play in easy mode, and I would have missed out on some truly exhilarating moments. I understand that that's just me and everyone is different, but I mean, there's plenty of games out there, not all have to cater to everyone. There are certainly plenty of games that I think look really cool but ultimately I don't feel are for me (most multiplayer games, really. Even if they look awesome, I just don't have the dedication for it). This is also why I think its important to watch gameplay videos before you buy, so that you know what you're getting yourself into.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  I do agree that not every game is for every person. I'd prefer it if the games could be made easier, but FromSoft can do what they want. What I find frustrating is that asking for this feature produces intense backlash in many communities. I'm not asking to be able to button mash my way through. Perhaps this is a problem with terms. I'd like a "hard but doable for me" mode. That mode is tuned lighter than the default tuning of the game as released. Consider that the games already come with many various forms of hard mode. You can do NG+ runs that are harder. You can do SL1 runs that are harder. You can put all of your souls into Resistance and waste your character. If the game shipped without level ups and everybody was forced into SL1 runs, would that make the game better? Surely for some people that'd place the difficulty right at their boundary of "hard, but doable." But for you (or certainly me) that'd be a frustrating wall.
  - dkersten 5y ago
    > What I find frustrating is that asking for this feature produces intense backlash in many communities. I can understand it though. I mean, leaving aside whether or not adding an easy mode actually affects the game for those who don't want to play in it. Its kinda like, the developers created a game that, as it stands, appeals to person A. Person B wants changes made or added to the game so that the game appeals more to them. Of course person A is going to be upset that others want the game changed to suit those other people, when it works perfectly fine for person A as is. For me, I know that adding an easy mode would affect my experience, but the reason for that is a me problem: because I know I don't have the tenacity to persevere if I have a choice to just play in easy instead (yet I also know that being forced to persevere has led to some of the greatest satisfaction I've gotten from playing games). That's my problem, though, but for me its like yeah well the game as is suits me, so.. please don't change it. Of course I totally understand that this is just me and that others could enjoy the game much more if this were added to the game, and I should just work on my self control in that area. But I totally get it, especially if this is the only thing that prevents someone from enjoying a game that in every other way would be enjoyable to them.

wpietri 5y ago

> you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack [...] Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun Different things are fun for different people. That sounds pretty tedious to me, a long slog of arbitrary "guess what the game designer is thinking of" puzzles. Especially when it's all built around killing, something that just doesn't interest me much. To each their own, I guess.

vvillena 5y ago
I agree. If I wanted to guess weird side effects of items when used in different ways, I wouldn't play Elden Ring. I'd play Monkey Island.
kipchak 5y ago
Most of these that I've come across are fairly intuitive. For example stone enemies being resistant to slashing damage, or dark ghosts being weak to holy damage. There's also typically a workaround, for example a jumping attack with a small slashing weapon does more physical damage.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I believe you, and it sounds like that is fun for you. Maybe I can explain by analogy. I'm very fond of the author Raymond Chandler, who wrote noir mysteries. I love his work, and especially the way he uses language. But I don't care at all who did it. The artificial puzzle aspect of mysteries just doesn't interest me. It's the same deal here. I get people like this kind of thing. I'm just saying I'm not one of those people. It sounds like I might appreciate the aesthetics of the game, so if I could play through it on easy mode, I might. Sort of the way I read through a mystery and am allowed to ignore the whodunnit aspect.
  - kipchak 5y ago
    I definitely get that it isn't for everyone. I'm not familiar with that author but I can relate via House Of Leaves and only really liking parts of it. Looking at it from the opposite side, some people have no problem with the gameplay, but pay little attention to the aesthetics or dialogue and lore or item descriptions. For them they can instead look up YouTube videos or Wiki articles to explain things. I don't think it's a bad thing those alternatives options exist, but I think adding say a logbook like in Outer Wilds would cheapen the experience for people who really want to get immersed in the world. I think practically watching a playthrough or just modding the game to make your character OP is the best workaround.

grogenaut 5y ago

Please continue to tell me that I'm having fun incorrectly. I'm 46, I have well over 10k hours in hundreds of video games. Been gaming since I had an Atari and games had no directions or guides like Indiana Jones. Having difficulty that I don't enjoy in a game is the number 2 reason after "it didn't click" that I abandon a game. There's literally nothing that stops me from reading a novel or watching a movie or walking through a museum or a world historical site to gate keep that experience. Games is the only one where we say "you must enjoy frustration or read spoilers to progress". Just gate keeping that great artistic vision. If it is art worth the experience it shouldn't behind a wall saying "get gud to enter". Let people experience it how they can or want to or have time to. We're no longer charging quarters based on deaths but that still has it's tendrils in our artform. To be clear I die a ton in games, I also appreciate it when the game is like ok buddy you tried you can go forward like gta5/gth2. I died 10 times to gremlin shamans in valheim yesterday, but that isn't gatekeeping some artwork, and that game has creative mode.

BuckRogers 5y ago
Great points. I’m turning 40 in a few couple months, so I saw a mostly saw it all since the beginning as well, from Kings Quest till games today as they evolved. I would concisely boil my view down to, and I think you’ll agree: I prefer games be fun even when losing. For me that says it all. And I don’t find the Souls games fun. Too much 3D camera control, and frustrating rather than fun when dying. I think if you removed the beautiful graphics, few people would play them. I also think the player base for these titles are going to skew younger, those who haven’t experienced as much as we have. I see nothing special in them at all. They landed on no magic for me. The game that brought me to this realization that a good game should be fun even when losing is League of Legends. While there’s too many kids that think the fun is only in stomping out the opponent quickly or they want to quit, for me that game is fun in the struggle for a comeback. And I’m still mysteriously unbothered when I lose. I enjoy it all the way. For me, that’s the mark of a good game. And it’s probably not a coincidence that it’s the most popular video game in the world.
ng12 5y ago
For my part I don't enjoy games where the gameplay is just something you do to experience a story. Last of Us is a good example. Great story, great atmosphere, bored to tears playing it. If Dark Souls were easy I would probably feel the same. It's also important to appreciate how difficult it is to balance a game especially when your character's power level increases throughout the game. Most games that have a hard mode are lazy: bosses just have more health or enemies suddenly get headshots all the time. The game needs to be balanced around an intended difficulty level to make it compelling. It takes a lot of talent to make a good difficulty curve, as proven by the lame ripoffs of Souls games that have come out over the years.

vvillena 5y ago

I mostly agree... and I'd still argue that the FromSoft games kinda fail at the "knowledge gathering" phase. Walking into a boss that kills you in less than 20 seconds means very little knowledge can be gathered, and sometimes it takes minutes to go back and try again. This is a specific thing that Hollow Knight does pretty much perfectly: you can keep most bosses at bay, because the focus isn't usually to survive, but to find openings where you can safely do some damage. Needing game knowledge is a great approach to game design. Dispensing such knowledge in the random way FromSoft games do is not. And this goes beyond just the combat aspect. Equipment and items in FromSoft games usually have non-discoverable hidden effects that at best turn the game into a weird puzzle, and at worst draw parallels to graphic adventure games of old. Case in point: Father Gascoigne in Bloodborne. You can find a music box that staggers the boss if you use it during the battle. It makes some sense from a lore perspective, but it's pure bullshit from a game perspective.

mpfundstein 5y ago
can you elaborate why the music box is bullshit? because its use it not handed to you on a silver plate? dont you think thats part of the game design? that such things are 'secrets'? you can find and share with the community?
- vvillena 5y ago
  I think it's part of the game design. I also think it's bullshit from a game perspective. Tying the box to Gascoigne is a secret bordering on an easter egg. The item must be equipped in the usable items bar. And you have to use it on the very first battle against another hunter, an enemy who keeps attacking relentlessly and gives no time to think. Even more, the effect of the item doesn't give enough feedback to the player. That item is just one of many in that game. The end effect is that players have to either treat the game as an arcane puzzle, or just search for solutions and ruin the mystery. No middle ground. Even accessing the DLC content borders on bullshit! There's only one clue to find the solution that puts the player in the first DLC area, and finding it becomes a process of trying dumb things until you find the right one by pure chance. Of course, that creature did a different thing when you found it earlier, but the game usually rewrites its own rules constantly so that's less of a surprise. Players can do this... or just turn to a guide and forget about the "graphic-adventure-puzzle level of randomness" aspect of Bloodborne and the other FromSoft games. This is why I think this is a valid criticism. FromSoft games excel at world building, atmosphere, combat design, and music. But their approach to game knowledge is only enjoyed by those who love that arcane aspect, and the only way around it for those who love all else save for that part is to ruin the magic and reach for a guide. PD. Also, some text translations in Spanish do not manage to keep the knowledge clues present in the English version. Discovering that was not very fun.