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Here's an inconvenient truth: Building itself is energy-intensive and depends heavily on emitting CO2 from the cement kiln to the trucks to the excavating equip

Here's an inconvenient truth: Building itself is energy-intensive and depends heavily on emitting CO2 from the cement kiln to the trucks to the excavating equipment etc. Doing it quickly, more so. The answer is always to do less. Less travel, less building infrastructure for travel, less economic activity, and ideally fewer people alive. Nobody wants to hear that. Everything on the table in what passes for public debate represents one or more of the Kubler-Ross grief stages: bargaining, denial and anger.

rayiner 5y ago
The end result of that logic is we should all just commit mass suicide.
- Centigonal 5y ago
  We live on a spectrum between excess and efficiency. We could move to a point further in the efficiency direction that isn't morally untenable.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  the end result of "systems thinking" is that "balance" is found by smoothing out extremes.. it takes a combination of capacity, training, inputs and will to use a human mind to think in terms of systems, not just yourself, but many people are capable of that
Ericson2314 5y ago
Why do people keep on reasoning this way! One must remember the capex opex distinction. Building e.g. in electricity generation with fossil fuels can be net negative, and even necessary, to bootstrap more electrified activity. I am not saying some sectors aren't just bad need to shrink, but other sectors are good need to grow. That is what Jason Hickel thinks too, incidentally! An across-the-board slowdown of economic activity is a very stupid --- both in terms of political impossibility and also needless sacrifice --- way to fix our climate issues.
lamontcg 5y ago
What if we need to build mass transportation solutions in order to get Americans off of single occupancy vehicles? What if we need to build more housing in our cities so that housing becomes affordable and the homelessness problem is reduced? What if we need to build solar and wind farms so that we can turn off coal and natural gas generators? I don't know how you can propose doing literally nothing at all as the solution to the problem that has us on course for disaster.
- rdiddly 5y ago
  Not proposing anything. This is the obvious solution that won't ever be considered. The disaster is is own solution.
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    Yeah so "mass suicide" it is. You'll understand if the rest of the human race isn't quite as edgy and nihilistic as you are.
    - rdiddly 5y ago
      Don't blame me for that "mass suicide" comment, that was someone else's unimaginative and disingenuous reduction of many possibilities (various ways population might shrink) into one -- the most ridiculous and easy-to-shoot-down one as a matter of fact, which is why I throw the "disingenuous" in there. Nothing will be done to stop climate change. I'll bet you a million 2022 dollars, payable in 2050 in whatever units or quantity are used then. Nobody who actually makes or affects policy is reading what we type here, and they don't pay undue attention to how we vote either. So like I said, I'm not proposing a solution; climate change is happening; there's no rest of the sentence. (There's no "...unless we hurry up bla bla hey guys c'mon etc. etc.") Nobody was in charge of changing it and nobody is in charge of stopping it (because nobody is in charge, at all). The only thing you can say with any certainty (and it's surprising how obvious it is to some and how unacceptable to others) is that since technology and human activity are what caused the problem in the first place, and since every single permutation of more of the same, including and especially those designed to make our activities more efficient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox) will just make it worse, then the only plausible solution is LESS of that. Nobody wants to hear about less. Less is negative growth, less is a recession, and nobody wants to hear it, as I already said and as you and your fellow commenters and downvoters have amply confirmed. It's funny how smug you all are while being naive enough to believe that somehow the thing that caused it all will be the solution to it all. Bla bla same actions expecting different result bla bla insanity bla bla?

rayiner 5y ago

The end result of that logic is we should all just commit mass suicide.

Centigonal 5y ago
We live on a spectrum between excess and efficiency. We could move to a point further in the efficiency direction that isn't morally untenable.
mistrial9 5y ago
the end result of "systems thinking" is that "balance" is found by smoothing out extremes.. it takes a combination of capacity, training, inputs and will to use a human mind to think in terms of systems, not just yourself, but many people are capable of that

Ericson2314 5y ago

Why do people keep on reasoning this way! One must remember the capex opex distinction. Building e.g. in electricity generation with fossil fuels can be net negative, and even necessary, to bootstrap more electrified activity. I am not saying some sectors aren't just bad need to shrink, but other sectors are good need to grow. That is what Jason Hickel thinks too, incidentally! An across-the-board slowdown of economic activity is a very stupid --- both in terms of political impossibility and also needless sacrifice --- way to fix our climate issues.

lamontcg 5y ago

What if we need to build mass transportation solutions in order to get Americans off of single occupancy vehicles? What if we need to build more housing in our cities so that housing becomes affordable and the homelessness problem is reduced? What if we need to build solar and wind farms so that we can turn off coal and natural gas generators? I don't know how you can propose doing literally nothing at all as the solution to the problem that has us on course for disaster.

rdiddly 5y ago
Not proposing anything. This is the obvious solution that won't ever be considered. The disaster is is own solution.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  Yeah so "mass suicide" it is. You'll understand if the rest of the human race isn't quite as edgy and nihilistic as you are.
  - rdiddly 5y ago
    Don't blame me for that "mass suicide" comment, that was someone else's unimaginative and disingenuous reduction of many possibilities (various ways population might shrink) into one -- the most ridiculous and easy-to-shoot-down one as a matter of fact, which is why I throw the "disingenuous" in there. Nothing will be done to stop climate change. I'll bet you a million 2022 dollars, payable in 2050 in whatever units or quantity are used then. Nobody who actually makes or affects policy is reading what we type here, and they don't pay undue attention to how we vote either. So like I said, I'm not proposing a solution; climate change is happening; there's no rest of the sentence. (There's no "...unless we hurry up bla bla hey guys c'mon etc. etc.") Nobody was in charge of changing it and nobody is in charge of stopping it (because nobody is in charge, at all). The only thing you can say with any certainty (and it's surprising how obvious it is to some and how unacceptable to others) is that since technology and human activity are what caused the problem in the first place, and since every single permutation of more of the same, including and especially those designed to make our activities more efficient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox) will just make it worse, then the only plausible solution is LESS of that. Nobody wants to hear about less. Less is negative growth, less is a recession, and nobody wants to hear it, as I already said and as you and your fellow commenters and downvoters have amply confirmed. It's funny how smug you all are while being naive enough to believe that somehow the thing that caused it all will be the solution to it all. Bla bla same actions expecting different result bla bla insanity bla bla?